Friday, April 28, 2017
Defining the OSR by Identifying What it is Not (and other useless exercises of thought)
I was explaining to a teenager last night that defining the OSR was doomed to fail as each member of the OSR has their own personal definition. As that definition is personal, it generally is well defended and the thing of online battles that will never end ;)
Heck, we can't even decide what OSR stands for.
Is it Old School Revolution? Old School Resurrection? Old School Revival? Old School Renaissance?
Strange that we can't pin down what the "R" stands for but we know the "O" and "S" stand for "Old School" and not maybe "Original System" with the OSR becoming "Original System Rules"
Which is important, because if the OSR refers to Old School Rules (another possibility for the "R") then the OSR encompasses not just derivatives of the Original Dungeons & Dragons and its offspring but early RPGs such as Tunnels & Trolls, RuneQuest, Traveller, Chivalry & Sorcery, Bunnies & Burrows and so much more. Toon, GURPS, Champions (at least prior to the Hero System bloat), Rolemaster - All are 30 year old plus systems. Certainly they are Old School. (this list is far from complete - I'm not even going to make the attempt)
Or does OSR stand for "Open System Reference", as in, if it weren't for the OGL, there wouldn't be much of an OSR community. New releases certainly add life to the community.
So, what doesn't fall under the purview of the OSR? What is the cut off?
I think we can all agree that 3x and beyond of the D&D edition line of succession are outside the OSR, but then 5e tries to skim the bubble.
Are AD&D 2e's Skill & Powers releases within the purview of the OSR? I mean, 2e certainly is (I think), but what about all the splat books that bloated the system?
Looking at new systems, I see FATE and Apoc World and all their spinoffs as outside the OSR, but recent releases such as Polyhedral Dungeon and Far Away Land seem to be grounded in OSR sensibilities, even if their systems don't line up with prior Old School games.
Maybe the OSR is like an onion, with many layers. The inner layers are for the Original System Rules, then the Old School Rules, followed by an even larger layer covering the Old School Revival.
In the end, I find the OSR to be much like porn - I know it when I see it, but where I draw the line of what is and what isn't isn't the same place that others would draw it. We're all right even though our answers are different.
Yes, this was occupying my sleeping mind last night...
Labels:
osr thoughts
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Tenkar's Tavern is supported by various affiliate programs, including Amazon, RPGNow,
and Humble Bundle as well as Patreon. Your patronage is appreciated and helps keep the
lights on and the taps flowing. Your Humble Bartender, Tenkar
Blogs of Inspiration & Erudition
-
-
Kickstart Your Weekend: Horror and Sci-Fi! - A nice mix today. Let's get to it. *Frightshow Classics* [image: Frightshow Classics] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/frightshowclassics/frightshow...6 hours ago
-
Friday Fantasy: Asterion - It is difficult to describe what *Asterion* is without being as direct as its author is. So not to beat about the bush, *Asterion* is a sex dungeon. *Ast...7 hours ago
-
Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Expanded and Revised Edition) (1995) - From the back of the box: A decade has passed since the Age of Heroes began. The city of Tyr has broken free of tyranny, though turmoil still holds the w...15 hours ago
-
Deeper & Deeper Into The Station From Hell - The Red Room's Orbital Decay & Night Owl Workshop's Colonial Troopers - Session Report - Tonight's DM Paul's Colonial Troopers/Orbital Decay campaign and tonight's game picks right up where we were in last week's session. Our scientist Pu ar ...21 hours ago
-
More thoughts on Only Heroes Get to Resist - I've never implemented this rule, but I keep thinking about running a game that would use it: Only Heroes Get to Resist I have a few more thoughts on it, ...22 hours ago
-
QuarHammer - I stumbled, addled, into my local semi-rural game store in search of off-brand Contrast paint to finish up Ionus Cryptborn, and while wandering around, I ...1 day ago
-
More (Mostly Pointless) Messing About - I thought I would try an experiment: I re-scaled one of Bergman's 1:100 Char B-I (bis) models to 1:200 and printed it on my Mars Pro. It's the yellow ...1 day ago
-
-
grodog's Founders & Legends and GaryCon XVI Convention Reports - 14-25 March 2024 - Part 3 - GaryCon XVI – Thank YOUs and SwagContinued from *Part 1 – Arrival through Founders & Legends and Interregnum Tuesday* and from *Part 2 - GaryCon XVI – 20-2...1 day ago
-
Stonehell: Dipping their toes in the sewer - Session 227 was played on 9/24/23 Morgana, Magic User (Rob) Blotto, Goblin Fighter (Lanse) Koltic, Cleric 7 (NPC) Aroon, Fighter 5 (NPC) Jameth, Fighter 5...1 day ago
-
AD&D ability tests, streamlined - As I've mentioned in my Hyperborea review (check it pout!), I really liked how the game tries to streamline AD&D ability checks: This is a simpler versi...1 day ago
-
On preparing adventures for the Ghostbusters RPG - With my mind on a lot of things lately related to West End Games' classic RPG *Ghostbusters*, I was thinking of putting together a blog entry offering so...1 day ago
-
d100 Wasteland Weirdos - Possibly some Charginspire leaked onto our new album. Sampler short https://youtube.com/shorts/Yj7jn40iomM?si=dflfJ10EdYYJqMYr My Gunderholfen solo play...2 days ago
-
Standoff at Sandfell Sea Fort - By MalrexThe Merciless MerchantsOSR/1e/2eLevels 4-7 Eerie lights? Strange noises? Ships are sailing blind into the rough shores of the Bay of Saurvorn. Why...2 days ago
-
A World in a Magazine - Four years ago, I wrote about my history with miniature games and getting back into them during the lockdown. Summer 1995 saw me seduced by the world of ...2 days ago
-
Living Rooms, Beyond the Living Room, and The Open Form Broadside - Living rooms set to liven up your RPG adventures, and a broadside journal set to stimulate those little grey cells... Rob Kuntz's latest releases! *Livin...4 days ago
-
Return to the Known Lands – Session #43 – Beware of Strangers with Magic Swords, Pt. 2 - PCs: - Frakus (Dw FM 3) - Osan (Elf F/MU 4/2) - Omes (Half FM) - Arro (MU 3) NPCs: - Marnes (CL 4) - Burdar (Dw FM 1) -...5 days ago
-
New Printable Scenery Campaign: Ramshackle & Ruin - [image: New Printable Scenery Campaign: Ramshackle & Ruin] I don't know how many of my peeps here are into 3d printing, but I'm always collecting the STL ...1 week ago
-
Play as Sculpture, Play as Prism - Watching my eldest child and friends engaging in imaginative play, I'm often struck by the fact that what seems to excite them is deciding who gets to be...1 week ago
-
OSR: Mirrors, Cubes, Rods, Staves, and the Deck of Motley Things - I've written another 10 pages of the Treasure Overhaul (title pending), a condensed magic item compendium for old-school games. Unlike the first two prev...1 week ago
-
Session #12 & Adventure Sites Compilation - Firstly, I wanted to let everybody know that Adventure Sites I by Coldlight Press is now available as a free download on DriveThruRPG. It includes my own...2 weeks ago
-
The Evolution of Gaming, or Why My Thoughts on Gaming have Changed Drastically Over Time - I have been thinking about this for quite a long time and though I am not an eloquent man, I thought I should put these random and chaotic thoughts down in...2 weeks ago
-
The Release of How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox and the Isle of Pyade - The Release With the successful conclusion and fulfillment of my Kickstarter, I am releasing How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox and The Isle of Pyade to the publ...2 weeks ago
-
Clerics of the Flanaess, Part 2 - Sorry it took so long to get to the next article in this series, but here we are! This continues the details of specialty clerics for the World of Greyhawk...2 weeks ago
-
On the Sector Turn - It's very simple. There are many important things cybertechtronically enhanced secret agents need to do: Buy illegal tanks with railguns. "Convince" the...3 weeks ago
-
Arsenic & Old Lace (a Review)... - The free-kriegsspiel revolution (or FKR; sometimes free-kriegsspiel roleplay) has been getting a lot of attention lately, which seems inevitable given re...3 weeks ago
-
The Light Dawns - THIS!!! Yes, a thousand times, this! Back in the day, I referred to this as “neo-classicalgaming,” which is to say, the sorts of games that came ou...3 weeks ago
-
Improvised Awful Lights Missions - Asking about The Awful Lights, a commenter asks: *I'd love to hear about how this is run - with the Handler determining mission location and objectives ...3 weeks ago
-
Jim Ward's Adventure in Gygax's Wonderland - Last weekend at GaryCon, many of us raised a glass to the memory of Jim Ward, who passed away just days before the convention. Ward was very helpful to m...3 weeks ago
-
It’s Tolkien Reading Day - I recently started rereading *The Silmarillion*. I had last read it over two decades ago. I liked it then but I’m really enjoying it this time! Despite b...4 weeks ago
-
Osr anchorites? - It's been a long time since I listened to any osr podcasts. Anchor was a lot of fun. I'm not sure if the community is still going? I deleted the app ...5 weeks ago
-
Chaos War Dogs - Welcome back to the Vault! My gaming partner and I had a fun day at the Meme Team doubles last weekend, placing mid-table results wise. My eye is now lo...5 weeks ago
-
ShadowDark Magic Items - The next campaign I run will use the ShadowDark RPG. I'm not sure when that'll be (I'm hoping a little later this year), but ShadowDark is my choice. I'v...1 month ago
-
Xandering, Jaquaysing, or Arneson-ing the Dungeon? - Yet another gamer firestorm arose shortly after the passing of Janelle Jaquays when it was noted that Justin Alexander had changed a rather well known p...2 months ago
-
GLOG Class: Bioweapon - I got this idea from mad gods on bear blog. Crab Evo from Kagaku Sentai Dynaman A thousand soldiers were slain. Too many to be tragic--this is just a fact...2 months ago
-
The Economy Engine, v0.2 - I made a thing. For D&D 3rd edition, so it might not be that interesting to a lot of people. But I made it and I think it’s cool. The 3rd edition Dungeon M...2 months ago
-
*'s in SpaaaaaAaaaace - A lot of SF (including a certain 2D6 RPG grandaddy) deal with ancient aliens taking humans from Earth and dropping them, fleas and all, on one or more w...3 months ago
-
[MODULE] The Webs of Past and Present & Cloister of the Frog-God (NOW AVAILABLE!) - Can you have enough frog-themed modules? I am pleased to announce the publication of two adventure modules, *The Webs of Past and Present *and *Cloister of...3 months ago
-
What Else Have I Got in Me? - Brechewold's been done for a little while. Still incredibly pumped to have this labor of love out in the company of LotFP's marvelously creative body of ...3 months ago
-
Housekeeping 2024 - Coactus Illustration © Heather Gwinn. A gift she gave me in 2013 for an edition of Miscreated Creatures which I hope exists someday. Coloring by me. I am a...3 months ago
-
Last move - to self-hosting! - As my vote regarding Substack in the “marketplace of ideas”, I’m moving to self-hosting. I’m now at (and hopefully staying for a long time at) Blog: ht...3 months ago
-
Sex-Crazed Falling Stars, Free Weather Magic, and Adventures: News of the Hill Cantons - *Grandma Gaya, the Rav-Witch of High Kezmarok*, seeks the stout of limb and humble of mind in the *obtaining of fallen stars* from an upcoming prophesied ...3 months ago
-
Time Rolls On - Today is December 31, 2023, in the mid-afternoon. In less than ten hours it will be 2024. 2023 2023 was a good year. But all years are good years. Both goo...3 months ago
-
Play Report: Skull Mountain - At the end of the last Skull Mountain session the PCs had retreated to safety at Owen's redoubt, met with visiting elves, and recovered from injuries ...5 months ago
-
-
Moving On... - So, my D&D 5e experiment has blown up the lab in a puff of green smoke leaving my face blackened like Wile E. Coyote after a failed roadrunner Acme trap...10 months ago
-
How to Keep Megadungeons Fresh - People often consider megadungeons boring. Not because the play style is boring, but because they are in the same locale for a majority of the campaign. If...11 months ago
-
ODIOUS UPLANDS and COMPLETELY UNFATHOMABLE DCC AT LAST - NOW AVAILABLE in PDF and Print on Demand:ODIOUS UPLANDS and COMPLETELY UNFATHOMABLE (DCC)CLICK HERE TO BUY NOW! SO YOU SURVIVED OPERATION UNFATHOMABLE? Od...1 year ago
-
The Blade Itself - I just finished listening to the audiobook of The Blade Itself, volume one in Joe Abercrombie’s The First Law trilogy. This was my first exposure to his wo...1 year ago
-
Master Treasure Seeker: A Dungeon23 MegaDungeon - Introduction - Sean McCoy, author of Mothership, posted an article on his substack titled Dungeon23 and it's taken the indie RPG scene by storm. So, I'm throwing my hat...1 year ago
-
Genteel Magistrate at FenCon XVIII - Victorious author Mike Stewart will be a guest at FenCon XVIII this weekend at the Sheraton DFW Airport hotel, 4440 W. John Carpenter Freeway, Irving, TX, ...1 year ago
-
Osamu Tezuka (1928 - 1989) - [image: Osamu Tezuka - Shonen Magazine Cover, 1970]Shonen Magazine Cover, 1970 [image: Osamu Tezuka - Shonen Magazine Cover Illustration 1970]Shonen Maga...1 year ago
-
Helvéczia: Journal de Campagne, 3 - We resumed play this past week, joining the company still within the farmstead where those that remain of the seven knaves are restrained or incapacitate...1 year ago
-
This is an Important Game Mechanic - *"That's the GM's Regional Map from my AOWG. And it's a damned good regional map. It's not a good map for a Simple Homebrew Campaign. It does some s$&...1 year ago
-
Clean Your Room - Looking back at my little blog here. That last post… wow, I was having fun playing WOW Classic! That was August of 1999 and I was having a blast… it was ...2 years ago
-
-
My RPG Zine Trilogy is on Kickstarter! - I can't believe I didn't post about it here! The Dead are Coming, Screams Amongst the Stars and Running Out of Time are on *Kickstarter right now!* Thes...3 years ago
-
Maximum HP 004, one week to go - Just one week to go for Maximum HP issue #004, the undead. We are pushing through stretch goals and wracking up contributions for the best issue yet. We...3 years ago
-
Steve Jackson Interview - James Maliszewski recently did an interview with Steve Jackson over on his Grognardia blog. Steve chats about the beginnings of The Fantasy Trip and upcomi...3 years ago
-
The Hero’s Journey 2nd Edition, Campbellian roleplaying at its best! - (this review done using the reviewers own purchased copy) I have been a James Michael Spahn fan since he wrote his Swords & Wizardry Companion. His writing...3 years ago
-
Undermountain Map Origins - As documented on the Ruins of Undermountain sales page, "TSR didn't actually use Ed Greenwood's original maps," at least not in their entirety. This post d...3 years ago
-
WB:FMAG Total Print Sales - Hello Folks, The last time I did a quick sales report was in September 2018. I pulled reports from Amazon, Lulu and DrivethruRPG from October to current fo...4 years ago
-
The Minotaur for Old-School Essentials - *Minotaur* *Requirements:* Minimum STR 9, Minimum CON 9 *Prime Requisite:* STR and CON *Hit Dice:* 1d10 *Maximum Level:* 8 *Armor:* Leather, including shield...4 years ago
-
WIZARDS OF POHJOLA - Init +0 Melee Atk • sword or dagger +1 (1d5 or 1d3) Ranged Atk • hot iron sparks +3 (1d4+2 to two targets within 20' but not closer than 5') AC 14 HD 12d...4 years ago
-
The Withered Crag custom print version for sale again - Just re-enabled the direct sales button for the custom print (classic style detached cover) version of F4 The Withered Crag, and also for F3 Many Gates of...4 years ago
-
Dungeons & Dragonmead Fall Schedule - *As you know, I run public classic Dungeons & Dragons games at **The Loaded Die**/Metro Detroit Game Night's Board Game Nigh at **Dragonmead**, in Warren...4 years ago
-
-
D&D Sling Damage vs. Large Targets - In many early editions of D&D, weapons were assigned two damage values: one for small/medium targets (i.e. man-sized) and one for large targets (giants and...4 years ago
-
James A. Smith, Jr. Memorial Video - A beloved father, devoted friend, and D&D Dungeon Master extraordinaire. We miss you! To view video, click here Memorial Video Note - The original video...5 years ago
-
Let's Talk About Pacing! - The idea, I think, is that the RPG is ultimately about the long game. Even rolling back to the early days of Basic & Expert, the goal of the player was...5 years ago
-
Profane and Profound Prep Part 2 - This is part 2 of my work to edit my magic items for a DMsGuild release, along with adding cursed items along the way. Here is part 1. Bone of a Saint 8000...5 years ago
-
SHORT BREAK. - I'm going to take a break for a week or so and will start up again in the New Year. Thanks for reading and we'll start with Level 6 when I get back.5 years ago
-
Iain Lovecraft, 3D Sculptor - Nope, it's got nothing to do with Cthulhu. I just did a video conversation with Iain Lovecraft, who designs 3D miniatures and terrain. If you're not doi...5 years ago
-
New website! - Slowly but surely, all the content here will make its way — in updated form! — to my new website: timbannock.com. For fairly obvious reasons, that site wil...5 years ago
-
Please Update Your Link! - If you're seeing this, it means your link to the Greyhawk Grognard blog is out of date. Please update your link to www.greyhawkgrognard.com (RSS feed is h...5 years ago
-
Mord Mar - Session 6 - We weren't able to play Mord Mar last week, due to a family funeral. This week we played on Monday for the first time, due to kids returning to school and ...5 years ago
-
A Small, Quiet Plea - There has been a great deal of discussing political agendas, social grievances, and personal attacks within the little corner of gaming that is my hobby....5 years ago
-
Don’t Sleep It’s Broken - Expanding/editing my comments from What Makes Something Broken G+ thread: “Broken”, for me, is anything that makes normal character choices, tactics, or ro...6 years ago
-
Swords & Wizardry Light-Themed Birthday Party - Last month, my wife and I helped our oldest to celebrate his birthday in style. Ever since 2013, we have hosted a themed birthday party for our now-15-ye...6 years ago
Original School of Role-playing
ReplyDeleteMaybe only the S has been nailed down?
I say original because many of those players never left. I believe Rob Kuntz defines himself that way ("Original School").
Anyway, I agree it's a mostly useless exercise. Using Matt Finch's A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming or Chris Gonnerman's The Role-Playing Game Primer and Old School Playbook should help, though.
Ha! This is good. I can tell you one more thing that's not OSR: gatekeeping what games other people play and enjoy, which has always struck me as ridiculous behavior. There's never been a better time to be a gamer, old school or otherwise — because now we have games for every play style preference and permission to make more. That's glorious!
ReplyDeleteWell said. #BadWrongFun accusation is a plague that needs eradication.
DeleteI think it all falls under Old School Roleplaying no matter what you determine OSR stands for. :)
ReplyDeleteWell, comparing the OSR to porn pretty much nails it.
ReplyDeletePun intended.
OSR = "Oh Shit, Run!"
ReplyDeleteThe rules aren't necessarily the important part here, but the possibility that you can find yourself in over your head if you're not alert. From D&D 3.x on, and in many not-D&D games, there are often expectations that challenges will be 'appropriate' for your group, that you can reasonably expect to handle a certain number per day before it gets hard.
"I think we can all agree that 3x and beyond of the D&D edition line of succession are outside the OSR"
... and yet, it was 3e (and more importantly, the OGL that 3e shipped with) that largely made the OSR rules sets feasible.
Untier the multiverse!
DeleteI think of "OSR" like I do heavy metal music -- it comes in many styles and genres, and you simply know it when you hear it. :-)
ReplyDeleteOr what Brian said above. lol
ReplyDeleteIt's not "Old Stinky Relics"? I thought it was a commentary on the people playing that style, so.... (Please note, this is an attempt at humor through the medium of sarcasm).
ReplyDeleteOSR = "Old School Rules". That definition has served me well, and encompasses damn near everything.
ReplyDeleteIt is an onion. Regardless of label there is a group of hobbyists playing, publishing, and promoting classic editions of D&D. Being people they have other interests. Some will take the original mechanics and mash them up into related RPGs that exemplify their vision. Some will take newer mechanics and mash them in to create their vision. Other like completely different genres, games, etc.
ReplyDeleteEventually you get so far out that you are playing something completely different from classic D&D. Which is fine but just realize that it not likely to be of general interest to those playing, promoting, and and publishing for classic editions of D&D.
OSR for all it flaws is the label that got applied to this. Could have been something else but due to the way things shook out OSR got the nod. Personally I always used because I thought it was simple, direct, calls back to TSR, and sounds good when you say it.And it seems a lot of people shared my sentiment.
But in the end the is about people not the label. The label is just a convince so we don't have to type the hobbyists playing, promoting, and publishing for classic D&D and related RPGs all the damn time.
I rather like Old School Roleplaying, focusing more on the style of play than how one adjudicates said play.
ReplyDeleteYou had me at porn...
ReplyDeleteFamily resemblances, any one?
ReplyDeleteFood for thought: Godbound is considered by quite a few folk I know to be old-school in that it uses the Stars Without Number as a crux. But is more or less classless, does not use Vancian style casting, and race is more or less a cosmetic choice.
ReplyDeleteThematically it is also a much higher level of power than many OSR adventures and settings, although old-school D&D does have super-powered source material (Basic D&D Immortals and Forgotten Realms come to mind). It also has a sandbox gaming design ethos which is popular in OSR circles.
To me it's a hybrid. Perhaps several years ago natter other proper thematics would be important for preserving "feel," but I think as time goes on there's more willingness to take old-school systems in more directions while still preserving core traits.
In my estimation, 90% of the OSR is a hybrid.
DeleteThanks for mentioning for example Polyhedral Dungeon. I like playing old style adventures but I don't want to emulate rulesets like AD&D1 necessarily. So, OSRIC will never become my thing. Games that bring different, original rule approaches to old school gaming - I like that a lot.
ReplyDeleteNot saying Polyhedral Dungeon is ideal or better. The intro adventure was in fact a bit of a let-down.
I guess what I would prefer more than the deluge of OSR retro-clones and mild variations of Original and Basic would be actually some sort of design school for high quality adventures - fun dungeons with interesting rooms that actually might even tell an interesting story. It's not primarily about the rules... It's about a whole school of design. I thought DCC had it nailed - they write fun modules. But very often it's about very small-scale, very linear things. It's so action-packed it knows no other pacing than the rush. A heady mix, but there oughta be more.
So, what I'm looking for is less OSR systems and their proclaimed ideal playing styles but adventures that actually foster and encourage these play styles. If the lack of "powers" in a Basic or Original Edition characters lead to cautious, thoughtful playstyles instead of heroic fantasy, then my question is: Where are the adventures actually built around this style? Where clever tactics win the day, where smart actions beat the challenge, etc?
There's way too few of these for my taste. Or maybe I have not discovered them yet. Always looking... I think the rules had enough spotlight by now. I hunger for the right kind of adventures. And it's not encounter tables or wandering monsters either... (though it doesn't hurt either)
I say Old School Resources. New products that are ready made to use with out of print games, mainly OD&D, BX D&D and BECM D&D for me, without having to convert game mechanics.
ReplyDeleteThere is a great OSRIC monster book.
DeleteHmmm..... "Old School Reference" anyone?
It stands for Old School Renaissance. My judgement is final and unyielding so there! Well Oh Shit Run is a really good second great term. DAMN there I go yielding!
ReplyDeleteI was thinking of advertising a potential game as “old school”. But then I realized people would ask what I meant by that. Thinking about how to answer, I decided “old school” just wasn’t helpful at all. I came back to my two-axis model of RPGs: Rules versus rulings and “good story” versus “let’s just see where this goes”.
ReplyDeleteI might still advertise as “old school”, but when asked to explain, I’ll explain the two axes and say my games are more rulings over rules and more “let’s see what happens” than “let’s tell a good story”. (With the acknowledgement that that may not be what anyone else means by “old school”.)
Obscene Serpent Religion!
ReplyDeleteI call it a second golden age. People making (or learning to make) cool stuff and using the internet to find their niche.
ReplyDeleteI call it inspiring
ReplyDeleteAnyone know when OSR first became "a thing"?
ReplyDelete