I remember the Gor series well. I picked the first 12 books or so up from a garage sale in the late 80s at a quarter a book. Made it through the first five or six books before giving up on the series. The sex / rape / slavery depicted was not what I was looking for in my escapism. Well, that and the writing was fairly poor. Yes, i devoured almost all scifi and fantasy I could get my hands on those days, good or bad, but even I had my limits.
So, 25 years after I was introduced to, and decided to pass on Gor, we now have an Indiegogo project to make Gor into an actual RPG. Luckily(?) for us, James Desborough is keeping it to it's roots:
Yeah, as I recall it wasn't so much sex / gender issues as it was slavery and rape. Not things I want to fantasize about in my roleplaying.
No mention or hint at the actual game system isn't helping sell it to me either. I mean, James says the work is basically complete, so how about some ideas on the system that may be worth strippin away from it's setting.
Oh, and it's "Flexible Funding", the "Fuck You" of crowdsourced funding - even if it doesn't fund, your pledge is still taken. So in reality, there is no goal post to hit.
I am sure all publicity is good publicity - but I'm not including links. If folks are really that interested, they can find it on their own.
Sometimes as a hobby, we are our own worst enemy. I'm sure James is betting his own history of internet battles will be as much a selling point as the setting itself. It will be a shame when I find myself on the side of his detractors for what seems like the first time.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Tenkar's Tavern is supported by various affiliate programs, including Amazon, RPGNow,
and Humble Bundle as well as Patreon. Your patronage is appreciated and helps keep the
lights on and the taps flowing. Your Humble Bartender, Tenkar
Blogs of Inspiration & Erudition
-
-
Kickstart Your Weekend: Horror and Sci-Fi! - A nice mix today. Let's get to it. *Frightshow Classics* [image: Frightshow Classics] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/frightshowclassics/frightshow...7 hours ago
-
Friday Fantasy: Asterion - It is difficult to describe what *Asterion* is without being as direct as its author is. So not to beat about the bush, *Asterion* is a sex dungeon. *Ast...7 hours ago
-
Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Expanded and Revised Edition) (1995) - From the back of the box: A decade has passed since the Age of Heroes began. The city of Tyr has broken free of tyranny, though turmoil still holds the w...16 hours ago
-
Deeper & Deeper Into The Station From Hell - The Red Room's Orbital Decay & Night Owl Workshop's Colonial Troopers - Session Report - Tonight's DM Paul's Colonial Troopers/Orbital Decay campaign and tonight's game picks right up where we were in last week's session. Our scientist Pu ar ...22 hours ago
-
More thoughts on Only Heroes Get to Resist - I've never implemented this rule, but I keep thinking about running a game that would use it: Only Heroes Get to Resist I have a few more thoughts on it, ...23 hours ago
-
QuarHammer - I stumbled, addled, into my local semi-rural game store in search of off-brand Contrast paint to finish up Ionus Cryptborn, and while wandering around, I ...1 day ago
-
More (Mostly Pointless) Messing About - I thought I would try an experiment: I re-scaled one of Bergman's 1:100 Char B-I (bis) models to 1:200 and printed it on my Mars Pro. It's the yellow ...1 day ago
-
-
grodog's Founders & Legends and GaryCon XVI Convention Reports - 14-25 March 2024 - Part 3 - GaryCon XVI – Thank YOUs and SwagContinued from *Part 1 – Arrival through Founders & Legends and Interregnum Tuesday* and from *Part 2 - GaryCon XVI – 20-2...1 day ago
-
Stonehell: Dipping their toes in the sewer - Session 227 was played on 9/24/23 Morgana, Magic User (Rob) Blotto, Goblin Fighter (Lanse) Koltic, Cleric 7 (NPC) Aroon, Fighter 5 (NPC) Jameth, Fighter 5...1 day ago
-
AD&D ability tests, streamlined - As I've mentioned in my Hyperborea review (check it pout!), I really liked how the game tries to streamline AD&D ability checks: This is a simpler versi...1 day ago
-
On preparing adventures for the Ghostbusters RPG - With my mind on a lot of things lately related to West End Games' classic RPG *Ghostbusters*, I was thinking of putting together a blog entry offering so...1 day ago
-
d100 Wasteland Weirdos - Possibly some Charginspire leaked onto our new album. Sampler short https://youtube.com/shorts/Yj7jn40iomM?si=dflfJ10EdYYJqMYr My Gunderholfen solo play...2 days ago
-
Standoff at Sandfell Sea Fort - By MalrexThe Merciless MerchantsOSR/1e/2eLevels 4-7 Eerie lights? Strange noises? Ships are sailing blind into the rough shores of the Bay of Saurvorn. Why...2 days ago
-
A World in a Magazine - Four years ago, I wrote about my history with miniature games and getting back into them during the lockdown. Summer 1995 saw me seduced by the world of ...2 days ago
-
Living Rooms, Beyond the Living Room, and The Open Form Broadside - Living rooms set to liven up your RPG adventures, and a broadside journal set to stimulate those little grey cells... Rob Kuntz's latest releases! *Livin...4 days ago
-
Return to the Known Lands – Session #43 – Beware of Strangers with Magic Swords, Pt. 2 - PCs: - Frakus (Dw FM 3) - Osan (Elf F/MU 4/2) - Omes (Half FM) - Arro (MU 3) NPCs: - Marnes (CL 4) - Burdar (Dw FM 1) -...5 days ago
-
New Printable Scenery Campaign: Ramshackle & Ruin - [image: New Printable Scenery Campaign: Ramshackle & Ruin] I don't know how many of my peeps here are into 3d printing, but I'm always collecting the STL ...1 week ago
-
Play as Sculpture, Play as Prism - Watching my eldest child and friends engaging in imaginative play, I'm often struck by the fact that what seems to excite them is deciding who gets to be...1 week ago
-
OSR: Mirrors, Cubes, Rods, Staves, and the Deck of Motley Things - I've written another 10 pages of the Treasure Overhaul (title pending), a condensed magic item compendium for old-school games. Unlike the first two prev...1 week ago
-
Session #12 & Adventure Sites Compilation - Firstly, I wanted to let everybody know that Adventure Sites I by Coldlight Press is now available as a free download on DriveThruRPG. It includes my own...2 weeks ago
-
The Evolution of Gaming, or Why My Thoughts on Gaming have Changed Drastically Over Time - I have been thinking about this for quite a long time and though I am not an eloquent man, I thought I should put these random and chaotic thoughts down in...2 weeks ago
-
The Release of How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox and the Isle of Pyade - The Release With the successful conclusion and fulfillment of my Kickstarter, I am releasing How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox and The Isle of Pyade to the publ...2 weeks ago
-
Clerics of the Flanaess, Part 2 - Sorry it took so long to get to the next article in this series, but here we are! This continues the details of specialty clerics for the World of Greyhawk...2 weeks ago
-
On the Sector Turn - It's very simple. There are many important things cybertechtronically enhanced secret agents need to do: Buy illegal tanks with railguns. "Convince" the...3 weeks ago
-
Arsenic & Old Lace (a Review)... - The free-kriegsspiel revolution (or FKR; sometimes free-kriegsspiel roleplay) has been getting a lot of attention lately, which seems inevitable given re...3 weeks ago
-
The Light Dawns - THIS!!! Yes, a thousand times, this! Back in the day, I referred to this as “neo-classicalgaming,” which is to say, the sorts of games that came ou...3 weeks ago
-
Improvised Awful Lights Missions - Asking about The Awful Lights, a commenter asks: *I'd love to hear about how this is run - with the Handler determining mission location and objectives ...3 weeks ago
-
Jim Ward's Adventure in Gygax's Wonderland - Last weekend at GaryCon, many of us raised a glass to the memory of Jim Ward, who passed away just days before the convention. Ward was very helpful to m...3 weeks ago
-
It’s Tolkien Reading Day - I recently started rereading *The Silmarillion*. I had last read it over two decades ago. I liked it then but I’m really enjoying it this time! Despite b...4 weeks ago
-
Osr anchorites? - It's been a long time since I listened to any osr podcasts. Anchor was a lot of fun. I'm not sure if the community is still going? I deleted the app ...5 weeks ago
-
Chaos War Dogs - Welcome back to the Vault! My gaming partner and I had a fun day at the Meme Team doubles last weekend, placing mid-table results wise. My eye is now lo...5 weeks ago
-
ShadowDark Magic Items - The next campaign I run will use the ShadowDark RPG. I'm not sure when that'll be (I'm hoping a little later this year), but ShadowDark is my choice. I'v...1 month ago
-
Xandering, Jaquaysing, or Arneson-ing the Dungeon? - Yet another gamer firestorm arose shortly after the passing of Janelle Jaquays when it was noted that Justin Alexander had changed a rather well known p...2 months ago
-
GLOG Class: Bioweapon - I got this idea from mad gods on bear blog. Crab Evo from Kagaku Sentai Dynaman A thousand soldiers were slain. Too many to be tragic--this is just a fact...2 months ago
-
The Economy Engine, v0.2 - I made a thing. For D&D 3rd edition, so it might not be that interesting to a lot of people. But I made it and I think it’s cool. The 3rd edition Dungeon M...2 months ago
-
*'s in SpaaaaaAaaaace - A lot of SF (including a certain 2D6 RPG grandaddy) deal with ancient aliens taking humans from Earth and dropping them, fleas and all, on one or more w...3 months ago
-
[MODULE] The Webs of Past and Present & Cloister of the Frog-God (NOW AVAILABLE!) - Can you have enough frog-themed modules? I am pleased to announce the publication of two adventure modules, *The Webs of Past and Present *and *Cloister of...3 months ago
-
What Else Have I Got in Me? - Brechewold's been done for a little while. Still incredibly pumped to have this labor of love out in the company of LotFP's marvelously creative body of ...3 months ago
-
Housekeeping 2024 - Coactus Illustration © Heather Gwinn. A gift she gave me in 2013 for an edition of Miscreated Creatures which I hope exists someday. Coloring by me. I am a...3 months ago
-
Last move - to self-hosting! - As my vote regarding Substack in the “marketplace of ideas”, I’m moving to self-hosting. I’m now at (and hopefully staying for a long time at) Blog: ht...3 months ago
-
Sex-Crazed Falling Stars, Free Weather Magic, and Adventures: News of the Hill Cantons - *Grandma Gaya, the Rav-Witch of High Kezmarok*, seeks the stout of limb and humble of mind in the *obtaining of fallen stars* from an upcoming prophesied ...3 months ago
-
Time Rolls On - Today is December 31, 2023, in the mid-afternoon. In less than ten hours it will be 2024. 2023 2023 was a good year. But all years are good years. Both goo...3 months ago
-
Play Report: Skull Mountain - At the end of the last Skull Mountain session the PCs had retreated to safety at Owen's redoubt, met with visiting elves, and recovered from injuries ...5 months ago
-
-
Moving On... - So, my D&D 5e experiment has blown up the lab in a puff of green smoke leaving my face blackened like Wile E. Coyote after a failed roadrunner Acme trap...10 months ago
-
How to Keep Megadungeons Fresh - People often consider megadungeons boring. Not because the play style is boring, but because they are in the same locale for a majority of the campaign. If...11 months ago
-
ODIOUS UPLANDS and COMPLETELY UNFATHOMABLE DCC AT LAST - NOW AVAILABLE in PDF and Print on Demand:ODIOUS UPLANDS and COMPLETELY UNFATHOMABLE (DCC)CLICK HERE TO BUY NOW! SO YOU SURVIVED OPERATION UNFATHOMABLE? Od...1 year ago
-
The Blade Itself - I just finished listening to the audiobook of The Blade Itself, volume one in Joe Abercrombie’s The First Law trilogy. This was my first exposure to his wo...1 year ago
-
Master Treasure Seeker: A Dungeon23 MegaDungeon - Introduction - Sean McCoy, author of Mothership, posted an article on his substack titled Dungeon23 and it's taken the indie RPG scene by storm. So, I'm throwing my hat...1 year ago
-
Genteel Magistrate at FenCon XVIII - Victorious author Mike Stewart will be a guest at FenCon XVIII this weekend at the Sheraton DFW Airport hotel, 4440 W. John Carpenter Freeway, Irving, TX, ...1 year ago
-
Osamu Tezuka (1928 - 1989) - [image: Osamu Tezuka - Shonen Magazine Cover, 1970]Shonen Magazine Cover, 1970 [image: Osamu Tezuka - Shonen Magazine Cover Illustration 1970]Shonen Maga...1 year ago
-
Helvéczia: Journal de Campagne, 3 - We resumed play this past week, joining the company still within the farmstead where those that remain of the seven knaves are restrained or incapacitate...1 year ago
-
This is an Important Game Mechanic - *"That's the GM's Regional Map from my AOWG. And it's a damned good regional map. It's not a good map for a Simple Homebrew Campaign. It does some s$&...1 year ago
-
Clean Your Room - Looking back at my little blog here. That last post… wow, I was having fun playing WOW Classic! That was August of 1999 and I was having a blast… it was ...2 years ago
-
-
My RPG Zine Trilogy is on Kickstarter! - I can't believe I didn't post about it here! The Dead are Coming, Screams Amongst the Stars and Running Out of Time are on *Kickstarter right now!* Thes...3 years ago
-
Maximum HP 004, one week to go - Just one week to go for Maximum HP issue #004, the undead. We are pushing through stretch goals and wracking up contributions for the best issue yet. We...3 years ago
-
Steve Jackson Interview - James Maliszewski recently did an interview with Steve Jackson over on his Grognardia blog. Steve chats about the beginnings of The Fantasy Trip and upcomi...3 years ago
-
The Hero’s Journey 2nd Edition, Campbellian roleplaying at its best! - (this review done using the reviewers own purchased copy) I have been a James Michael Spahn fan since he wrote his Swords & Wizardry Companion. His writing...3 years ago
-
Undermountain Map Origins - As documented on the Ruins of Undermountain sales page, "TSR didn't actually use Ed Greenwood's original maps," at least not in their entirety. This post d...3 years ago
-
WB:FMAG Total Print Sales - Hello Folks, The last time I did a quick sales report was in September 2018. I pulled reports from Amazon, Lulu and DrivethruRPG from October to current fo...4 years ago
-
The Minotaur for Old-School Essentials - *Minotaur* *Requirements:* Minimum STR 9, Minimum CON 9 *Prime Requisite:* STR and CON *Hit Dice:* 1d10 *Maximum Level:* 8 *Armor:* Leather, including shield...4 years ago
-
WIZARDS OF POHJOLA - Init +0 Melee Atk • sword or dagger +1 (1d5 or 1d3) Ranged Atk • hot iron sparks +3 (1d4+2 to two targets within 20' but not closer than 5') AC 14 HD 12d...4 years ago
-
The Withered Crag custom print version for sale again - Just re-enabled the direct sales button for the custom print (classic style detached cover) version of F4 The Withered Crag, and also for F3 Many Gates of...4 years ago
-
Dungeons & Dragonmead Fall Schedule - *As you know, I run public classic Dungeons & Dragons games at **The Loaded Die**/Metro Detroit Game Night's Board Game Nigh at **Dragonmead**, in Warren...4 years ago
-
-
D&D Sling Damage vs. Large Targets - In many early editions of D&D, weapons were assigned two damage values: one for small/medium targets (i.e. man-sized) and one for large targets (giants and...4 years ago
-
James A. Smith, Jr. Memorial Video - A beloved father, devoted friend, and D&D Dungeon Master extraordinaire. We miss you! To view video, click here Memorial Video Note - The original video...5 years ago
-
Let's Talk About Pacing! - The idea, I think, is that the RPG is ultimately about the long game. Even rolling back to the early days of Basic & Expert, the goal of the player was...5 years ago
-
Profane and Profound Prep Part 2 - This is part 2 of my work to edit my magic items for a DMsGuild release, along with adding cursed items along the way. Here is part 1. Bone of a Saint 8000...5 years ago
-
SHORT BREAK. - I'm going to take a break for a week or so and will start up again in the New Year. Thanks for reading and we'll start with Level 6 when I get back.5 years ago
-
Iain Lovecraft, 3D Sculptor - Nope, it's got nothing to do with Cthulhu. I just did a video conversation with Iain Lovecraft, who designs 3D miniatures and terrain. If you're not doi...5 years ago
-
New website! - Slowly but surely, all the content here will make its way — in updated form! — to my new website: timbannock.com. For fairly obvious reasons, that site wil...5 years ago
-
Please Update Your Link! - If you're seeing this, it means your link to the Greyhawk Grognard blog is out of date. Please update your link to www.greyhawkgrognard.com (RSS feed is h...5 years ago
-
Mord Mar - Session 6 - We weren't able to play Mord Mar last week, due to a family funeral. This week we played on Monday for the first time, due to kids returning to school and ...5 years ago
-
A Small, Quiet Plea - There has been a great deal of discussing political agendas, social grievances, and personal attacks within the little corner of gaming that is my hobby....5 years ago
-
Don’t Sleep It’s Broken - Expanding/editing my comments from What Makes Something Broken G+ thread: “Broken”, for me, is anything that makes normal character choices, tactics, or ro...6 years ago
-
Swords & Wizardry Light-Themed Birthday Party - Last month, my wife and I helped our oldest to celebrate his birthday in style. Ever since 2013, we have hosted a themed birthday party for our now-15-ye...6 years ago
As questionable Gor seems to be, the whole crippling health condition thing doesn't really help.
ReplyDeleteIt's like he's politely informing us in advance that the project is doomed. I appreciate the honesty, it's refreshing.
DeleteI'm actually quite a fan of the Gor novels, and think they're a splendid sword-and-planet setting. But yeah, there are quite a few red flags in that pitch.
ReplyDeleteI saw a Gor movie. I don't know how close it was to the books, and I can't really recommend the movie either. The look of the production though did have a very well done D&D fantasy world (perhaps Dark Sun) design ethic to it that was very consistent. It might be worth a look at from that standpoint. Just don't watch it with your folks. It was wall-to-wall exposed flesh.
ReplyDeleteThere were actually two Gor movies. Aside from a couple of names, they had zero to do with the books. Kind of like Conan, but awful.
DeleteMost of the Goreans I have encountered online are good role-players, especially the women (who are always slave girls), but their interest is sex, which doesn't go well at most tables. (Google some of their chatroom transcripts.) But women are treated awful, and the English tongue is arguably treated worse. The whole scene is kinda creepy, and I'm not sure I want to meet any of them for more than casual conversation in person.
ReplyDeleteIt's even more odd when you consider that at least half of the people playing male Gorean characters are actually female. Which sort of inverts the usual chat room paradigm...
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI think I paid full price for some if those paperbacks ($0.75) what happened to the damn cent symbol . The first intriguing enough that there is a penciled entry for 'Tarn' by the Giant Eagle in my 1e Monster Manual. But they did descend into creepy and the writing wasn't good enough for me to keep them.
ReplyDeleteAh, the one good thing from Gor that could have been in D&D: tarns. Dave Arneson's campaign had them as the way of long distance travel, and they're in both the Dalluhn Manuscript and the First Fantasy Campaign. (FFC also has prices for slaves with a clear Gorean flavor, but let's leave those back in the Seventies.) It has more flavor than teleport.
Delete"Sometimes as a hobby, we are our own worst enemy." Indeed.
ReplyDeleteYou missed (or decided not to include) the section where he wrote, "Yes, Gor contains sexual content of a BDSM, D/S nature." That's a euphemism for slavery and rape.
If this is James' thing, then so be it.
didn't miss it. slavery and rape fantasies are not "a thing".
Deletesorry, but I've dealt with rape victims in my day job, and describing such as James' thing is nauseating
Blog post coming.
DeleteYes, slavery and rape fantasies are "a thing".
DeleteI know two men well who are into BDSM, and both of them are gentlemen. They wouldn't be cruel or unkind to women in real life.
I'm into BDSM. I don't have much tolerance for men who act like jerks in real life.
As a D&D player, you know the difference between fantasy and reality, right?
I hope that makes the idea of BDSM fantasies less nauseating to you. You may find it unappealing, but people who are into that kind of thing are not rapists.
Kibibi makes the points I would. What I'm finding funny is how the kink community seems to be shaming the RPers and the RPers seem to be shaming the kink community.
DeleteGor seems to exist at a sort of Lagrange Point of intolerance.
well, at least now I understand where Venger is coming from:
DeleteShail:
If during the time of our rule. what if a practicing mage wishes to partake in ritual sex. however there is by some situation no other magicians around. so he takes a non-member and uses them, against their will, making it rape. Would it be rape? ….
Darrick Dishaw:
interesting question. i don’t see a problem with talking about moral and ethical options in a theoretical future…
ordinary people who survive the Emerald Apocalypse, sleeple or whatever you want to call them, will probably either be hiding, sacrificed, or put into slavery. as far as code of conduct regarding slaves is concerned, it usually goes without saying that a master can have sex with his slaves whenever he wants.
Curwen:
I’m sure these kind of fantasies can be fun for lonely guys who are lacking in social skills and never get laid.
But I’m having a hard time seeing how someone who cant get a sexual partner could organize and rule the world.
Darrick:
wow, what a f*cking downer you are, curwen! what would your namesake say?
the question of what to do in a situation of unwilling or unavailable partners for a sex magic ritual is cogent one. obviously, in this day and age rape is illegal and unacceptable. ….
http://danharms.wordpress.com/?s=Cult+of+Cthulhu+&submit=Search
Moorcock ran a campaign in uk for books not to be on display to minors - just a fantasy is lame - everything about this stinks of jerk - we were working on a worst rpg's games day project and Gor was mentioned but we had policy of rejecting rape games - with all controversy in rpg circles (and greater geek culture) now this idea actually deserves all the heat it can get
ReplyDeleteI notice that when I Googled James's description of what he was doing, he didn't mention anything about licensing. John Norman actually cares about this kind of thing, and if he catches wind of this without already being given a cut, it will be shut down fast.
DeleteIt seems weird, but if you don't want this published, John Norman might be your friend.
James desborough is commenting on this on +kasimir urbanski. The funding page for gor is noticeably uninformative when you compare it to his previous efforts like motsp. He says that he is doing a slow reveal of the various system questions and other concerns which to me is puzzling. Ditto with all the concerns mentioned above especially issues of lateness. As for the sex stuff not my cup of tea but I have to say overtly sexual games always seem to take away from play rather than add to it.
ReplyDeletei dont have issues with the sex - not my cup of tea but whatever.
DeleteHaving rape as part of the built in roleplaying game and setting - that is disturbing at the very least.
Not to mention the rape of the English language. Peeee-yoooo!
DeleteThe word 'rape' as used in the Gorean novels is more like 'ravish' or to 'have passionate and forceful sex'. It's more about D/S - when it gets into that - than actual rape.
Delete"No mention or hint at the actual game system isn't helping sell it to me either. I mean, James says the work is basically complete, so how about some ideas on the system that may be worth strippin away from it's setting."
ReplyDeleteIt's almost as if the designer is hoping to sell the thing based on titillation and controversy instead of technical merit.
I can't imagine the author of The Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers doing such a thing.
DeleteOr that, like I said, I'm revealing things bit by bit to help keep momentum going.
DeleteAll this speculation and aspersions as to why I'm doing things the way I'm doing them. It's rather insulting especially since I'm really not that hard to get hold of and talk to.
As to SGTFG: "The Canadian government has apologised for Bryan Adams on several occasions." - I see no need to go over that YET again. Read my previous comments on criticisms towards that.
Ugh. This, after the whole "he's a rapist" fake controversy, seems pretty fucking stupid. I played a lot on Second Life a few years ago. Lots of Goreans on there. Creepy fuckers, indeed. The thing I remember from the Gor books was the repeated insistence that the slave girls just LOVED to be raped, because it helped them find their true selves. Even at 12, I knew that just wasn't right. I'm with Tenkar. I would read anything at that point in my life, and often did, but that shit wasn't for me.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the lack of discussion of mechanics, maybe its a third party supplement for FATAL. Seems like an excellent fit.
James, if you're reading these comments, what the hell, dude? Just... no. There's a difference between being controversial in one's art and courting controversy to be a dick. Don't be a dick.
I'm a genuine fan of the books and have been working on this for 18 months. I am also a (currently non practicing) kinkster, but think there's plenty in the setting for those who wish to all but ignore it and concentrate on other things.
DeleteConsent (safe, sane and consensual) is hugely important in the BDSM scene, even to the point of being codified with safe words. This isn't that dissimilar to the social contracts that we have around the gaming tables where we fade to black or tone things down if people get freaked out.
Its a different, challenging and FICTIONAL culture that for a very large number of people holds appeal as fantasy. We live in a world where 50 Shades is a bestseller and gamers are this prudish and this unable to tell reality from fantasy? This judgemental of others?
It genuinely saddens me.
Here's the real deal.
DeleteNo victim of rape fantasizes about being raped again. Nightmares? Quite likely.
I spent 4 days being trained as a Sex Crime and Child Abuse investigator and responder. The training itself gave me sleepless nights.
For rape to be billed as an integral part of the setting and rules is, to put it nicely, disturbing to me. I don't give a flying fuck about folks in the BDSM culture (although including such rules in an RPG would certainly surprise me) and what they do in private, but minimizing and trivializing the horror of rape in a commercial RPG is at it's simplest, poor taste.
To compare my distaste of the codification of "rape fantasies" in a commercial RPG (it wasn't made by you Grim) to Homophobia just shows me how far some need to reach
Anecdotal, but, I had a friend some years ago who very much did exactly that. The context of a rape-play scenario gave her a way to relive the experience but from a position of consent and - ultimately - control. She swore it helped her immeasurably, to be able to deal with that in such a way.
DeleteFilms, fiction, roleplaying and sexual play all share a common thread. They are a safe, sane and consensual means to explore and examine the fantastical, the horrifying and the different. I object in the strongest political terms to the expansionist, imperialist ambitions of Mordor towards Gonder, but without them there's no story, no adventure.
Tenkar, I don't understand why you think that rape is "billed as an integral part of the setting and rules" or why you think that the game is a "codification of rape fantasies".
DeleteNowhere on the game's indiegogo page does it mention rape.
I may be talking from a position of ignorance here, because I've only read the first seven books (out of thirty-something). If I'm wrong someone can correct me, but -
- in the books I've read sexual relations are never explicitly described. John Norman has never even mentioned women's breasts! Sexual relations between main characters happen "offscreen" and only after they have formed a romantic attachment.
There are plenty of instances in the books I've read of people (woman, and men too), being taken captive, stripped, caged, collared, chained and whipped - even branded! Some pretty unpleasant things happen to people. It would be correct to describe the books as containing sadistic fantasies. But I personally don't think it is correct to describe them as rape fantasies. I don't get any impression that rape is a particular fetish of John Norman's. Bondage, slavery and corporal punishment, for sure. On sexual matters he is quite coy.
As for the game, I think the reason that Gor will make a good setting for an RPG is that it provides a lot of opportunity for adventure. I really can't imagine a group of people sitting around a table playing this game, and spending a lot of time describing their characters sex lives. For one thing, it would be awkward and embarrassing! For another, if people want to role-play their Gor-related sexual fantasies, there are much better forums already existing out there (on the internet) for them to do so than a game that involves rolling dice and being awarded experience points for achieving goals.
I understand that as a police officer, due to your work you must have very negative emotions associated with the idea of violence against women, and that because of that you don't wish to see violence against women portrayed as part of the setting of a game. However, I think that your imagination may have run away with you a little bit, when you have been picturing to yourself what this game will involve and what impact it will have on people.
While I'm here I would also like to say thank-you for writing this blog, which is such a great source of information about RPGs. I don't actually play D&D myself (I did once, for a few months) but I find the idea of that mythic fantasy world, and all the weird ideas associated with it, exerts a fascination on me, so I do read D&D blogs and products. And without this post I wouldn't know about THIS product. I'm sure you are wishing you'd just ignored it now :-)
DeleteOh, my smiley got cut in half by the blog formatting! Here it is again :-)
DeleteThe sex in the Gor novels was less BDSM and more on the rape side of the equation. As James has stated the sexual aspects of the books are integral to the setting and rules, I have no doubt rape will be depicted.
DeleteJust because James tip toes around the issue on the Indiegogo page (probably because of their own standards) doesn't mean it's not there. Heck, James makes no attempt to dispute the notion.
Again, I understand what James is doing. He wants to be the shock jock of RPG writers. He certainly has talent to spare.
As a side note - using the Open D6 system is an interesting choice. Personally, I think the system gets less love than it should, but I'm not so sure this is the love I want it to get ;)
I disagree, the entirety of Gorean culture is one big D/S power exchange. You've got your own read, sure, but it's more popular than I would think that would be. I see it more in the context of the 'bodice ripper'.
DeleteI don't want to be a 'shock jock', I'm just interested in difficult and controversial topics - and I genuinely love these books.
The source material seems trapped between tawdry and despicable. Mr. Desborough has been maligned but that doesn't make him an angel.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the real intrigue here is in the economics. Is Mr. Desborough paying for a license, as one would normally expect when working with established intellectual property? If so, why the terrible 'Flexible Funding'? Clearly he would have a minimum dollar amount he needs to hit for the project to be viable at all.
From James Desborough's blog (and linked to from the indiegogo page):
DeleteDo you have permission from John Norman?
This project is being completed in partnership with Open Road Integrate Media: E-book edition of Gor and all other John Norman titles are available in the United States via Open Road Integrated Media and the United Kingdom via Orion Gateway Editions. Print editions are available in the US via Amazon or in the UK at Amazon UK.
Short answer: yes, via his agent and publisher. I’ve had no direct contact however, manuscripts have been made available to his agent and publisher.
I don't see flexible funding as terrible, I've used it before successfully. it's useful when you're going to do a project ANYWAY, but are seeking an amount to do the best job you possibly can. With ImagiNation I needed to pay for my time away from working, so that was fixed, I couldn't spare the time without the dimes. MotSP was flexible because it was happening anyway, but I wanted to use whatever amount I could get - successful or not - to pay Satine.
DeleteThis is going ahead anyway, one way or another, but I need a lot of money to get a sufficient amount of art from our mystery artist.
Oh, so when I think, "This is game, and the pitch, is puerile, immoral, pathetic, and illegal," I am wrong -- it is not illegal.
ReplyDeleteNo, you're just being judgmental and closed minded.
DeleteRight, because the only way someone can think Gor is stupid, that an IGG for a product that is not written and the owner admits may not be written -- though he'll keep any funding either way -- is immoral, or that a game revolving around a second-rate S&S world that is only remarkable for claiming women want to be raped is pathetic -- the only way one can reach those opinions is by being close minded and judgmental. Hokay.
DeleteYou can think it's stupid all you like, but 'puerile, immoral, pathetic and illegal' go beyond personal taste into into being accusatory.
DeleteThe product IS written. It's complete. The crowdfunding is for art, just like it says in the pitch. I prefer flexible funding because it means time - and money - is not wasted and I can put whatever is raised into the project.
Second rate, yadda yadda, subjective personal judgements from fellow roleplayers, much of whose favourite games are incredibly derivative and the most popular of which is a pastiche of any number of first, second and third tier fantasy worlds - and often worse than the source material.
It's also pretty clear you're going on second hand information if you think it's about 'women wanting to be raped' or that the only thing the books have going for them - or are remarkable for - is depictions of slavery.
Anyway, TL;DR - you're being a judgmental. kink-shaming prick and don't have your information straight.
You are correct, I misunderstood the status of the project. I saw the caveats about it maybe not ever being completed and assumed the worst; for that I owe you an apology. However I explicitly said your project is not illegal.
Delete(& How I can express my personal taste in a way does not 'accuse' the thing in question of being of a certain character eludes me; perhaps you can explain the alternative to 'subjective personal judgements' in matters of taste. I'm intrigued. Objective personal judgements?)
So you don't like my opinion of Norman and his crappy novels. I have in fact read parts of two of them (could not finish, he needs an editor badly). He goes on about women being inherently in need of domination; one character was enslaved and IIRC depicted as eventually enjoying it. That is not BDSM kink, that's misogyny, perhaps rape apologetics. Norman -- at least within the context of the bits I've read -- is not describing two consenting adults. You are deliberately conflating those of us who find who find slavery-&-rape-as-a-centerpiece-of-the-setting distasteful with those who find BDSM distasteful.
Assuming your version of Gor is depicting consenting adults, I guess then it is only distasteful to me for the reason any game that is focused on sex is distasteful. And pathetic.
'Crappy' is a matter of personal taste, accusations - of which only 'illegal' has been withdrawn - are another.
DeleteYes, that's kink, no, that's not rape apologia any more than the existence of racial evil in D&D is apologia for white supremicism.
You disappoint me, but I guess I should be used to being disappointed by small, closed minds - even in fantasy - by now.
"This game.."
ReplyDeleteDoh.
You guys talk about this as if it is going to sit on the shelf at Barnes and Noble next to Pathfinder.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't.
It will likely be online only, when people search for Gor material.
People can publish what they want, that's what freedom means. There is obviously a market for this sort of thing, look at Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty books for ex.
This moral crusade "to protect the kids" is bullshit. If you want to protect your kid, take away their iPhone.
never said he can't publish what he wants, but I certainly have the same right to condemn it if I so desire. it cuts both ways.
Deletein any case, GRIM is getting the attention he wants - trust me, none of this discussion is upsetting him in the least - well, except for the lack of links...
Please don't speculate as to my motives or how I feel about things when I'm right here to ask.
Deleteyour own words, so I have no need to speculate:
DeleteAs noted above, discussion over representation and sex/gender issues in games are a hot topic. The revelation that a Gorean RPG has been developed is bound to cause ripples, scorn, recriminations and many, many heated blog posts.
It's all publicity, free publicity and hopefully these people will discover that the treatment in the book is not as terrible as they might have thought.
That's resignation that this is going to happen anyway. Not courting it. I've been pleasantly surprised by some of the discussion I've seen on - of all places - RPGNET and unpleasantly unsurprised by some of the reactions elsewhere.
DeleteAgain, you knew the reaction this project would receive in many circles. You were actually counting on it to generate free publicity.
DeleteResignation or not, none of this surprises you and in fact you were counting on it to raise awareness of your project.
Again, I'm right here to be asked, rather than for assumptions to be made. Counting on it? Again, no. Expecting it, resigned to it and trying to take the best possible slant on it.
DeleteBut Gor books are just shittah....we had a drinking game back in the 80s involving reading a random passage from a Gor novel and keeping an straight face, or you had to drink. Man we used to get shit-faced! There was one passage about a quadraped slave that never failed to get a laugh (and a drink), it was kind of the Great Wall of Shitty Gor Literature that no one could climb. I support anyone's right to fund a game based on the absolutely worst literature to come out of mankind since L. Ron Hubbard.
ReplyDeleteHey L. Ron trie-- okay I can't say that with a straight face and not laugh..*Drink*
DeleteEh, I quite enjoyed Mission Earth and Hubbard's anthologies of new writers had some good stuff in them.
DeleteHave you revisited this game now that it's out? I read the first four books (reviewed at http://furiouslyeclectic.com/gor) and am considering the 5th with all the talk of the RPG, but a little time has passed since I read those and I finally read Princess of Mars which showed me how derivative Norman's initial work was.
ReplyDeleteStill, now that the RPG is out and available, it seems astute to revisit this whole issue. Does the author even have the heart of Gor in the game?