This is my first post on Tenkar's blog. I am honored that he allowed me to post here. I had something to say and no venue to say it in that would not cause me endless headaches. I hope you enjoy it.
The first version of the D&D Next public playtest has been out now for a week. If you are anything like me, you have been quite amused. If you got the feeling that maybe you have seen the material before, that's because you have. What you saw was a stripped down rebuild of 3rd Edition D&D + exactly four innovations. That's it.
- Advantage / Disadvantage
- Themes / Backgrounds
- Orisons / Cantrips
- Healing Dice
For those of you that don't know, when a company that doesn't have millions of dollars does that, we call it a fantasy heartbreaker. In the heartbreaker tradition, the improvements are borderline cringe-worthy. And these guys didn't even have to type it up, they could just copy-paste from their own decade-old files. That is really what it looks like they did in a lot of cases. And changing terms a little. Enough to be slightly confusing for no reason.
The best way to view a game is not in a vacuum, but relative to everything else. And compared to other products on the market, this game is terrible. I would rather play any edition of D&D, Pathfinder, any retro-clone / OSR game, or a wide variety of other heartbreakers before playing this one. Those games actually have good ideas in them. Even when I don't like the design (as in 4e D&D), I can at least give them credit for having unique ideas about the direction they wanted to take.
Some people have claimed that this is a retro-clone of 3e. However, that is not true. The purpose of a retro-clone is to improve the base text. I would rather play LOTFP than the original D&D because of it's many innovations in streamlining play; such as the d6 skills, encumbrance rules, and so on. I would rather play ACKS because it really innovated with proficiencies and has some really great class designs. I would rather play DCC because it is going in a new direction. I would rather play any of the truly classic retro-clones like OSRIC, L&L, or S&W because they are just better written and easier to use.
This game is not like that. It is poorly written and lacks innovation. Even the pittance of so-called innovations are daft. 2d20? You got to be kidding me. They must be smoking the good stuff in Seattle these days. I need to stop by and get some of that sweet herb.
But spending more time than this picking on this game is a waste of my time and yours. Because the real lesson here is not the poor quality of the game itself, but what it says about Wizards of the Coast that they released this stinking turd. The true lesson of this game is that WotC has no idea what the hell they are doing. To release a work so amateurish, so obviously unrefined, so draft-stage; says more about the quality of the company that made it than it does about the quality of the text itself.
Imagine if the head of General Motors made a press release that they were working on a new car design. It was going to please the owners of minivans, trucks, cars, and motorcycles. It was going to be everything to everyone; the one vehicle to unite all vehicle drivers. After several months of vague press releases and strange internet polls, General Motors finally unveiled it's new product for everyone to see and it was a station-wagon with three headlights, slightly wider tires, and a fire-engine red sidecar. And they wanted your feedback on how to make it better..... you are probably going to instead call your broker and sell your GM stock.
And that is precisely what this whole fiasco says about Wizards of the Coast. Time to sell the stock folks. These people don't have a clue what they are doing. They have jumped the shark.
They supposedly worked on this game for the past six months? What the hell did they do? I could have written this entire game in one day. Maybe that's what happened. Monte Cook left and Mike Mearls sat down one afternoon and took a weed wacker to the 3e source files. Even the Caves of Chaos is ripped from Gygax.
They say the goal of the playtest is to fine-tune these rules. Here is my tip.
Write some first.
Then we'll talk.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Tenkar's Tavern is supported by various affiliate programs, including Amazon, RPGNow,
and Humble Bundle as well as Patreon. Your patronage is appreciated and helps keep the
lights on and the taps flowing. Your Humble Bartender, Tenkar
Blogs of Inspiration & Erudition
-
-
Deeper & Deeper Into The Station From Hell - The Red Room's Orbital Decay & Night Owl Workshop's Colonial Troopers - Session Report - Tonight's DM Paul's Colonial Troopers/Orbital Decay campaign and tonight's game picks right up where we were in last week's session. Our scientist Pu ar ...4 hours ago
-
More thoughts on Only Heroes Get to Resist - I've never implemented this rule, but I keep thinking about running a game that would use it: One Heroes Get to Resist I have a few more thoughts on it, n...6 hours ago
-
QuarHammer - I stumbled, addled, into my local semi-rural game store in search of off-brand Contrast paint to finish up Ionus Cryptborn, and while wandering around, I ...14 hours ago
-
More (Mostly Pointless) Messing About - I thought I would try an experiment: I re-scaled one of Bergman's 1:100 Char B-I (bis) models to 1:200 and printed it on my Mars Pro. It's the yellow ...15 hours ago
-
-
grodog's Founders & Legends and GaryCon XVI Convention Reports - 14-25 March 2024 - Part 3 - GaryCon XVI – Thank YOUs and SwagContinued from *Part 1 – Arrival through Founders & Legends and Interregnum Tuesday* and from *Part 2 - GaryCon XVI – 20-2...16 hours ago
-
#AtoZChallenge2024: V is for Vampire - [image: Dracula by Edgar Alfred Holloway] Dracula by Edgar Alfred HollowayLong before I was ever known as the "witch guy" I was the "vampire guy." A lot of...17 hours ago
-
Stonehell: Dipping their toes in the sewer - Session 227 was played on 9/24/23 Morgana, Magic User (Rob) Blotto, Goblin Fighter (Lanse) Koltic, Cleric 7 (NPC) Aroon, Fighter 5 (NPC) Jameth, Fighter 5...18 hours ago
-
AD&D ability tests, streamlined - As I've mentioned in my Hyperborea review (check it pout!), I really liked how the game tries to streamline AD&D ability checks: This is a simpler versi...18 hours ago
-
Gammarauders (1987) - From the web: Each player plays a large cybernetic creature known as a bioborg, which wanders about a radioactive science fiction landscape. Bioborgs are...19 hours ago
-
On preparing adventures for the Ghostbusters RPG - With my mind on a lot of things lately related to West End Games' classic RPG *Ghostbusters*, I was thinking of putting together a blog entry offering so...1 day ago
-
d100 Wasteland Weirdos - Possibly some Charginspire leaked onto our new album. Sampler short https://youtube.com/shorts/Yj7jn40iomM?si=dflfJ10EdYYJqMYr My Gunderholfen solo play...1 day ago
-
Standoff at Sandfell Sea Fort - By MalrexThe Merciless MerchantsOSR/1e/2eLevels 4-7 Eerie lights? Strange noises? Ships are sailing blind into the rough shores of the Bay of Saurvorn. Why...1 day ago
-
A World in a Magazine - Four years ago, I wrote about my history with miniature games and getting back into them during the lockdown. Summer 1995 saw me seduced by the world of ...1 day ago
-
Miskatonic Monday #278: The Viscount Who Left Me - Between October 2003 and October 2013, Chaosium, Inc. published a series of books for *Call of Cthulhu* under the Miskatonic University Library Associati...3 days ago
-
Living Rooms, Beyond the Living Room, and The Open Form Broadside - Living rooms set to liven up your RPG adventures, and a broadside journal set to stimulate those little grey cells... Rob Kuntz's latest releases! *Livin...3 days ago
-
Return to the Known Lands – Session #43 – Beware of Strangers with Magic Swords, Pt. 2 - PCs: - Frakus (Dw FM 3) - Osan (Elf F/MU 4/2) - Omes (Half FM) - Arro (MU 3) NPCs: - Marnes (CL 4) - Burdar (Dw FM 1) -...4 days ago
-
New Printable Scenery Campaign: Ramshackle & Ruin - [image: New Printable Scenery Campaign: Ramshackle & Ruin] I don't know how many of my peeps here are into 3d printing, but I'm always collecting the STL ...1 week ago
-
Play as Sculpture, Play as Prism - Watching my eldest child and friends engaging in imaginative play, I'm often struck by the fact that what seems to excite them is deciding who gets to be...1 week ago
-
OSR: Mirrors, Cubes, Rods, Staves, and the Deck of Motley Things - I've written another 10 pages of the Treasure Overhaul (title pending), a condensed magic item compendium for old-school games. Unlike the first two prev...1 week ago
-
Session #12 & Adventure Sites Compilation - Firstly, I wanted to let everybody know that Adventure Sites I by Coldlight Press is now available as a free download on DriveThruRPG. It includes my own...1 week ago
-
The Evolution of Gaming, or Why My Thoughts on Gaming have Changed Drastically Over Time - I have been thinking about this for quite a long time and though I am not an eloquent man, I thought I should put these random and chaotic thoughts down in...1 week ago
-
The Release of How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox and the Isle of Pyade - The Release With the successful conclusion and fulfillment of my Kickstarter, I am releasing How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox and The Isle of Pyade to the publ...2 weeks ago
-
Clerics of the Flanaess, Part 2 - Sorry it took so long to get to the next article in this series, but here we are! This continues the details of specialty clerics for the World of Greyhawk...2 weeks ago
-
On the Sector Turn - It's very simple. There are many important things cybertechtronically enhanced secret agents need to do: Buy illegal tanks with railguns. "Convince" the...2 weeks ago
-
Arsenic & Old Lace (a Review)... - The free-kriegsspiel revolution (or FKR; sometimes free-kriegsspiel roleplay) has been getting a lot of attention lately, which seems inevitable given re...3 weeks ago
-
The Light Dawns - THIS!!! Yes, a thousand times, this! Back in the day, I referred to this as “neo-classicalgaming,” which is to say, the sorts of games that came ou...3 weeks ago
-
Improvised Awful Lights Missions - Asking about The Awful Lights, a commenter asks: *I'd love to hear about how this is run - with the Handler determining mission location and objectives ...3 weeks ago
-
Jim Ward's Adventure in Gygax's Wonderland - Last weekend at GaryCon, many of us raised a glass to the memory of Jim Ward, who passed away just days before the convention. Ward was very helpful to m...3 weeks ago
-
It’s Tolkien Reading Day - I recently started rereading *The Silmarillion*. I had last read it over two decades ago. I liked it then but I’m really enjoying it this time! Despite b...4 weeks ago
-
Osr anchorites? - It's been a long time since I listened to any osr podcasts. Anchor was a lot of fun. I'm not sure if the community is still going? I deleted the app ...5 weeks ago
-
Chaos War Dogs - Welcome back to the Vault! My gaming partner and I had a fun day at the Meme Team doubles last weekend, placing mid-table results wise. My eye is now lo...5 weeks ago
-
ShadowDark Magic Items - The next campaign I run will use the ShadowDark RPG. I'm not sure when that'll be (I'm hoping a little later this year), but ShadowDark is my choice. I'v...1 month ago
-
Xandering, Jaquaysing, or Arneson-ing the Dungeon? - Yet another gamer firestorm arose shortly after the passing of Janelle Jaquays when it was noted that Justin Alexander had changed a rather well known p...2 months ago
-
GLOG Class: Bioweapon - I got this idea from mad gods on bear blog. Crab Evo from Kagaku Sentai Dynaman A thousand soldiers were slain. Too many to be tragic--this is just a fact...2 months ago
-
The Economy Engine, v0.2 - I made a thing. For D&D 3rd edition, so it might not be that interesting to a lot of people. But I made it and I think it’s cool. The 3rd edition Dungeon M...2 months ago
-
*'s in SpaaaaaAaaaace - A lot of SF (including a certain 2D6 RPG grandaddy) deal with ancient aliens taking humans from Earth and dropping them, fleas and all, on one or more w...2 months ago
-
[MODULE] The Webs of Past and Present & Cloister of the Frog-God (NOW AVAILABLE!) - Can you have enough frog-themed modules? I am pleased to announce the publication of two adventure modules, *The Webs of Past and Present *and *Cloister of...2 months ago
-
What Else Have I Got in Me? - Brechewold's been done for a little while. Still incredibly pumped to have this labor of love out in the company of LotFP's marvelously creative body of ...3 months ago
-
Housekeeping 2024 - Coactus Illustration © Heather Gwinn. A gift she gave me in 2013 for an edition of Miscreated Creatures which I hope exists someday. Coloring by me. I am a...3 months ago
-
Last move - to self-hosting! - As my vote regarding Substack in the “marketplace of ideas”, I’m moving to self-hosting. I’m now at (and hopefully staying for a long time at) Blog: ht...3 months ago
-
Sex-Crazed Falling Stars, Free Weather Magic, and Adventures: News of the Hill Cantons - *Grandma Gaya, the Rav-Witch of High Kezmarok*, seeks the stout of limb and humble of mind in the *obtaining of fallen stars* from an upcoming prophesied ...3 months ago
-
Time Rolls On - Today is December 31, 2023, in the mid-afternoon. In less than ten hours it will be 2024. 2023 2023 was a good year. But all years are good years. Both goo...3 months ago
-
Play Report: Skull Mountain - At the end of the last Skull Mountain session the PCs had retreated to safety at Owen's redoubt, met with visiting elves, and recovered from injuries ...5 months ago
-
-
Moving On... - So, my D&D 5e experiment has blown up the lab in a puff of green smoke leaving my face blackened like Wile E. Coyote after a failed roadrunner Acme trap...10 months ago
-
How to Keep Megadungeons Fresh - People often consider megadungeons boring. Not because the play style is boring, but because they are in the same locale for a majority of the campaign. If...11 months ago
-
ODIOUS UPLANDS and COMPLETELY UNFATHOMABLE DCC AT LAST - NOW AVAILABLE in PDF and Print on Demand:ODIOUS UPLANDS and COMPLETELY UNFATHOMABLE (DCC)CLICK HERE TO BUY NOW! SO YOU SURVIVED OPERATION UNFATHOMABLE? Od...1 year ago
-
The Blade Itself - I just finished listening to the audiobook of The Blade Itself, volume one in Joe Abercrombie’s The First Law trilogy. This was my first exposure to his wo...1 year ago
-
Master Treasure Seeker: A Dungeon23 MegaDungeon - Introduction - Sean McCoy, author of Mothership, posted an article on his substack titled Dungeon23 and it's taken the indie RPG scene by storm. So, I'm throwing my hat...1 year ago
-
Genteel Magistrate at FenCon XVIII - Victorious author Mike Stewart will be a guest at FenCon XVIII this weekend at the Sheraton DFW Airport hotel, 4440 W. John Carpenter Freeway, Irving, TX, ...1 year ago
-
Osamu Tezuka (1928 - 1989) - [image: Osamu Tezuka - Shonen Magazine Cover, 1970]Shonen Magazine Cover, 1970 [image: Osamu Tezuka - Shonen Magazine Cover Illustration 1970]Shonen Maga...1 year ago
-
Helvéczia: Journal de Campagne, 3 - We resumed play this past week, joining the company still within the farmstead where those that remain of the seven knaves are restrained or incapacitate...1 year ago
-
This is an Important Game Mechanic - *"That's the GM's Regional Map from my AOWG. And it's a damned good regional map. It's not a good map for a Simple Homebrew Campaign. It does some s$&...1 year ago
-
Clean Your Room - Looking back at my little blog here. That last post… wow, I was having fun playing WOW Classic! That was August of 1999 and I was having a blast… it was ...2 years ago
-
-
My RPG Zine Trilogy is on Kickstarter! - I can't believe I didn't post about it here! The Dead are Coming, Screams Amongst the Stars and Running Out of Time are on *Kickstarter right now!* Thes...3 years ago
-
Maximum HP 004, one week to go - Just one week to go for Maximum HP issue #004, the undead. We are pushing through stretch goals and wracking up contributions for the best issue yet. We...3 years ago
-
Steve Jackson Interview - James Maliszewski recently did an interview with Steve Jackson over on his Grognardia blog. Steve chats about the beginnings of The Fantasy Trip and upcomi...3 years ago
-
The Hero’s Journey 2nd Edition, Campbellian roleplaying at its best! - (this review done using the reviewers own purchased copy) I have been a James Michael Spahn fan since he wrote his Swords & Wizardry Companion. His writing...3 years ago
-
Undermountain Map Origins - As documented on the Ruins of Undermountain sales page, "TSR didn't actually use Ed Greenwood's original maps," at least not in their entirety. This post d...3 years ago
-
WB:FMAG Total Print Sales - Hello Folks, The last time I did a quick sales report was in September 2018. I pulled reports from Amazon, Lulu and DrivethruRPG from October to current fo...4 years ago
-
The Minotaur for Old-School Essentials - *Minotaur* *Requirements:* Minimum STR 9, Minimum CON 9 *Prime Requisite:* STR and CON *Hit Dice:* 1d10 *Maximum Level:* 8 *Armor:* Leather, including shield...4 years ago
-
WIZARDS OF POHJOLA - Init +0 Melee Atk • sword or dagger +1 (1d5 or 1d3) Ranged Atk • hot iron sparks +3 (1d4+2 to two targets within 20' but not closer than 5') AC 14 HD 12d...4 years ago
-
The Withered Crag custom print version for sale again - Just re-enabled the direct sales button for the custom print (classic style detached cover) version of F4 The Withered Crag, and also for F3 Many Gates of...4 years ago
-
Dungeons & Dragonmead Fall Schedule - *As you know, I run public classic Dungeons & Dragons games at **The Loaded Die**/Metro Detroit Game Night's Board Game Nigh at **Dragonmead**, in Warren...4 years ago
-
-
D&D Sling Damage vs. Large Targets - In many early editions of D&D, weapons were assigned two damage values: one for small/medium targets (i.e. man-sized) and one for large targets (giants and...4 years ago
-
James A. Smith, Jr. Memorial Video - A beloved father, devoted friend, and D&D Dungeon Master extraordinaire. We miss you! To view video, click here Memorial Video Note - The original video...5 years ago
-
Let's Talk About Pacing! - The idea, I think, is that the RPG is ultimately about the long game. Even rolling back to the early days of Basic & Expert, the goal of the player was...5 years ago
-
Profane and Profound Prep Part 2 - This is part 2 of my work to edit my magic items for a DMsGuild release, along with adding cursed items along the way. Here is part 1. Bone of a Saint 8000...5 years ago
-
SHORT BREAK. - I'm going to take a break for a week or so and will start up again in the New Year. Thanks for reading and we'll start with Level 6 when I get back.5 years ago
-
Iain Lovecraft, 3D Sculptor - Nope, it's got nothing to do with Cthulhu. I just did a video conversation with Iain Lovecraft, who designs 3D miniatures and terrain. If you're not doi...5 years ago
-
New website! - Slowly but surely, all the content here will make its way — in updated form! — to my new website: timbannock.com. For fairly obvious reasons, that site wil...5 years ago
-
Please Update Your Link! - If you're seeing this, it means your link to the Greyhawk Grognard blog is out of date. Please update your link to www.greyhawkgrognard.com (RSS feed is h...5 years ago
-
Mord Mar - Session 6 - We weren't able to play Mord Mar last week, due to a family funeral. This week we played on Monday for the first time, due to kids returning to school and ...5 years ago
-
A Small, Quiet Plea - There has been a great deal of discussing political agendas, social grievances, and personal attacks within the little corner of gaming that is my hobby....5 years ago
-
Don’t Sleep It’s Broken - Expanding/editing my comments from What Makes Something Broken G+ thread: “Broken”, for me, is anything that makes normal character choices, tactics, or ro...6 years ago
-
Swords & Wizardry Light-Themed Birthday Party - Last month, my wife and I helped our oldest to celebrate his birthday in style. Ever since 2013, we have hosted a themed birthday party for our now-15-ye...6 years ago
YES
ReplyDeleteI would like to know why there is such a reviling of this edition? I have been reading many of the recent blog posts here and the bile and hate that coats these words make me wonder, what the hell man?
ReplyDeleteQFT:
ReplyDelete"They say the goal of the playtest is to fine-tune these rules. Here is my tip.
Write some first.
Then we'll talk."
Perfectly said.
@dragolite: Not sure if you are serious or not, but if you are, then it's because from a game design perspective, what we've seen so far is ridiculously disappointing. It's like Error 37 for D&D.
*Begins slow clap*
ReplyDeleteThank you! I agree completely! I recently just sent an email to WotC requesting them to delete my account (that I made for the playtest), and telling them I'm withdrawing from the playtest. All because of exactly what you wrote (not because of your post, but because my thoughts were exactly what you happened to post). I was so disappointed with what I saw, that I decided I wanted no part in it.
I'm going to have fun with other games. Got any recommendations? =)
The bile in this article is completely unfounded. WotC did NOT release this turd, because they did not release this. It is a draft, which is why, surprise surprise, it looks like a draft. It's an early playtest version. And they explicitly state that they removed some features from it in order to test how essential they are. You're complaining that it is what they say it is. Would you prefer if it turned out to be a magical castle instead? It's your own wrong assumptions that are letting you down.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to see a complete game, then you should wait, and not try an early playtest version. Ranting about how an incomplete game is incomplete makes you look silly.
And saying that there are no rules in there at all is just stupid. Open your eyes. I realize you love pissing on stuff, but try to use some actual arguments when you do so.
I was being serious.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what mcv said, to a point. There is no reason to call them stupid. I think we can try and be mature here. OK, I get you are upset about the rules and they seem to be part of an incomplete game, but, as mcv said, it is a playtest. They aren't going to be complete.
I am really curious about why there is such a hate, not just for the playtest, but the vitriol slant that this blog has taken to the entire concept of D&D Next. I understand, it is your opinion. Could you expand on WHY you don't like it?
If you want to send comments straight to me, I will send you my email. I am asking not only the Biting Halfling, but the Grumpy Dwarf and Erik himself.
I just had a revelation. WotC just don't know what kind of game they want to release. There is no structure to it. I paraphrase from Jonny Milton:
ReplyDeleteOf neither OD&D nor Basic nor 3.x nor 4.x but all those in their different causes mixed and which thus must ever fight.
If WotC had any idea about the direction D&D Next should take, it would be easy for the designers to crank out some rules to support this direction.
Mike Mearls, Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell have the know how to do it. But they do not have the know what to do.
So until WotC find a clear direction for D&D Next, it always will be a fantasy heartbreaker trying to please everyone.
KristianH, I think they do know what kind of game they want to release; which direction they want to take: they want to please everyone. They want to unite the many different playstyles of the various editions of D&D.
ReplyDeleteThat is not a lack of vision, it is a perfectly valid vision in its own right. It's definitely an ambitious goal, but I think it's too early to say that it cannot be done. I think that's actually what these playtests are for: to analyze which elements are vital for which playstyle, and how best to fit them together.
And of course it will mean that a lot of stuff is going to be optional. You can't at the same time have healing surges to support a 4e-style sequence of independent tactical challenges, and _not_ have easy healing to support OSR-style strategic resource management over the course of an adventure. So the easy healing is going to be optional, which means it has to be more loosely connected to the rest of the system than it was in 4e.
Same thing for many other aspects. We're going to end up with a really simple, accessible basic system, and a large toolbox with which to customize not just our characters, but our system. And I happen to like that.
@ dragonlite - 4e would have had the same effect on the community if there had been an open playtest and this much media attention.
ReplyDeleteAs for Grumpy, Grumpy is me and I am him. The Biting Halfling is NOT me. For one thing his post lacks my usual typos. Secondly, although I owned a crapload of 3x books, i played but one session of it. I don't have the gaming knowledge to break down 5e to 3e terms other then just a basic overview.
As for my distaste of 5e, it started with the PR Bullshit promises that Mike and Monte freely made right after the announcement of Next, and which now Mike regrets (and Monte apparently fled from).
I played through the last 2 rounds of the Friends and Family Playtest - 1st round of the rules were fun, i had some issues but nothing major - 2nd round 4e'ed the game, and removed much of the Old School feel.
I haven't done more then skim the latest version of the rules, and probably won't based on Mike's published posts on what's in them.
Grumpy will continue to comment on 5e postings at the WotC site.
The Biting Halfling will post when he feels fit to post I guess. I do get to read the draft post before it goes up.
@mcv,
ReplyDeletePlease explain the logic to me of "options" wherein you constantly take stuff away from a game and "options" where you add them on to a basic chasis?
I fail to under stand the "if you want to play X style just take this away" style of game design. Why not create a base game and then add to it - which, if I recall correctly, is the type of modularity they overhyped months ago.
Let me just look something up, yes here we go, my DCC playtest book....WOW what and INCREDIBLE work. The time, effort...LORD the art in this....hhhhmmmm let me see if I still got it...YEP here it is my Pathfinder Alpha playtest book...WOW these Paizo guys have really put some effort into this...AWESOME!
ReplyDeleteWhat did you say I can get the WotC 5e playtest, HELL BELLS they got tons o'monies! I bet that playtest Document is gonna make my eyes bleed! I can't wait!
Ok then, I downloaded it....kewl let me open this first PDF....hhhhmmm...What the F##K is this S##T did i get conned...is this some joke what a piece of crap...WotC you lose...again.
ERIC!
@Erik Tenkar
ReplyDeleteThank you, and I see your point much better now. And, I will even say that you do make some very valid points. The Monte Cook thing was a load of bull.
I shall continue to read your posts, not like there was much chance of me not reading them. I have a better grasp of why you feel the way you do and who knows, later playtest updates might swing me into your camp.
Thank you.
It's silly to be so critical of the writing in the play test material. This is not the finished game, folks. Reserve such judgment for the polished final product.
ReplyDelete@LucidDion - I remember playing in the Friends & Family playtest. I played a cleric. the material referred to domains and domain powers, but they weren't included in the package we were given.
ReplyDeleteThat's sloppy. And for a company the size of WotC, inexcusable.
I haven't given the latest bath of material more than a cursory glance, but isn't the point of a playtest to find probelms with the rules and the material, so it can be improved prior to release?
"I played a cleric. the material referred to domains and domain powers, but they weren't included in the package we were given."
ReplyDeleteThey very clearly stated they are not testing the classes but rather the die rolling mechanics this time around. You can choose to ignore that fact. You can choose to complain that what YOU wanted included was not this time around.
"I haven't given the latest bath of material more than a cursory glance, but isn't the point of a playtest to find probelms with the rules and the material, so it can be improved prior to release?"
And that is what they are doing...in doses. They are targeting specific rules so they fine tune those and then move onto other specific rules (like the character stuff you are so eager to see). They were very plain on this being their modus of operation, but you choose to "forget" that or just don't care.
This is not a complete game by any stretch and everyone knows that and yet you choose to judge it as a complete game. You are reaching for straws in your blind hatred of 5E.
This website is rapidly turning into nothing more than a hate-fest for WotC and 5E.
It seems every time someone says something critical about the playtest rules, we get the "it's only an early version, it's incomplete" argument. It isn't valid.
ReplyDeleteIndividual rules aren't the problem. Nobody cares if they will add encumbrance rules, or rules for lording over a domain, or an optional system for miniatures and a grid, or whatever. Things like surprise rolls, morale rules, and lower hit point totals do come up in the discussion, but only as examples to fix the real problems: lack of direction, a complete misunderstanding of what D&D is about, thinking players like old-school play because the rules are simple, bad design decisions, the inclusion of stupid ideas that didn't work in past 2.5 editions, and so forth.
The direction they're taking the game in is plain wrong. It doesn't matter if this is "just" an early playtest, because they will not make a complete 180-degree-turn towards another direction. They will not suddenly get a clue and change their vision of the game. They will not suddenly understand what D&D should play like and start designing towards it. That's not going to happen, early playtest or not.
@Callin - I was specifically referring to stuff mentioned in the Friends and Family playtest material that wasn't there when i went to find it to use it. My experience in THE LAST round of testing.
ReplyDeleteIn case you missed it, last night's post on this blog was not mine, but from a friend. His opinions are his opinions. Mine are mine. Yours are yours.
I, me personally, do not hate WotC. I, me personally, would love a version of D&D 5e that I would like to play. Something along the lines of the promises made in the begininning (which I knew were nigh impossible to hit). Mike Mearls stated in an interview that he regrets making those comments in the beginning. Live and learn. The 5e I've seen presented so far offers me little that I'd want to play.
If a personal friend approaches me and wants to post what he likes about 5e, I will give him / her the platform to do so.
And yes, it's an incomplete game. One in which they removed character generation from the Playtest (it was in previous versions) because they were afraid it might confuse people. I'm not sure if that is a knock against WotC, the game or the playtesters. I will sat that character gen was a breeze in the two previous versions.
@ Dragonlite
ReplyDeleteI don't hate WotC. I am disappointed that they have reached the point where they literally have no ideas left. Where they are grasping at straws. And I am angered by the willingness of so many people to give them a pass on such obviously weak sauce.
@ Callin
Where do you draw the line? If they released a playtest document that contained 2 words "orcs attack", you would probably say that document is not ready for prime time. Even as a playtest. So that is the range; between "orcs attack" and say the DCC beta where the game is almost entirely there. My point is that for WotC to be so weak compared to DCC, when WotC is the big dog of the pack, is very disappointing. It shows they are directionless.
@Jasper Polane: Could you explain what direction you think they should take with the game? Should it have been the complexity of Pathfinder? The predictability of 4e?
ReplyDeletePersonally I happen to like this direction. I admit, that might not be a good sign. I've never been a huge D&D fan (I grew up on WFRP and later GURPS), but I play a lot of 3.5 and Pathfinder lately, and I think it's just unnecessarily complex. I really appreciate the move towards simplicity that they're taking here.
One thing that I do like about the new game is that the 2d20 system is actually innovative. It is simple, but it gets away from two things:
ReplyDelete1) Fiddling with the precise size of a bonus
2) Endless stacking of bonuses.
That may seem simple, but the Raggi's LofFP had a lot of equally simple innovations that improved gameplay.
That is not to say that I defend the edition on one good mechanical advance, but this is the sole interesting thing that I have seen that seems to be new to 5E.
Saves based on abilities was simply too classic and too Castles and Crusades to count.
Man this post got me fired up. Okay, I'm tired of writing heated responses, deleting and restarting because I don't want to get all up in arms about one solitary opinion on the internet, always bad for the heart. So I'll just say, "cool story, bro."
ReplyDelete@mcv: I still think that they do not have a clear direction. I think that the WotC Designers are very talented folk. I honestly believe that they could create an improved version of OD&D or Basic or 3.X or 4th if the wanted to.
ReplyDeleteBut IMHO at the moment they try to cobble parts of all these systems together without creating a solid foundation.
@ "It's not a complete game but a playtest":
I was playtest DM for most of Green Ronins' 3.X edition stuff (Black Company Campaign Setting, Thieves' World), for the Song of Ice and Fire RPG and for Dragon Age RPG.
Everytime I got a complete, playable game with all nessessary rules.
So, from my experience, it is strange to only get parts of the whole game.
I've got be honest.. I actually liked the ruleset.. Seemed fairly easy to play. The reason I went back to OSR was simplicity and it seems to me that so far they've captured that. You compared them to DCC and ACKS and I haven't read ACKS yet but the DCC rules made my head hurt. I want to play, not be buried in a book. I do feel sorry for these bastards because no matter what they did, they aren't going to win. I think alot of the community has condemned them from the get go.
ReplyDeleteGotta say, it's pretty awesome how this thread of comments shows the varying thoughts and opinions on the new playtest materials, in a single place. Most places I read only have one viewpoint in the comments.
ReplyDeleteI agree that WotC is being held to a high standard, but I think they should be. They have some of the most experienced tabletop game designers in the world, so why not expect a lot?
2d20 might be an innovation, but it's about the only one and it's not terribly impressive. We already have OSR clones (including streamlined ones), 2e, pathfinder, 4e, etc., so for a new edition to hold water, I'd personally like to see a bit more than "here's all the old stuff compiled together plus you can roll 2d20 sometimes". I have a few thousand dollars worth of D&D stuff on my shelves, I'm quite certain I could take a 1-page document on 2d20 and put it inside any of those systems without needing a 5e.
Like or dislike 4e, at least noone can say it wasn't hugely different from the existing editions at the time.
@Mr Blue - yep, as long as folks avoid personal attacks (which they have, God bless them) this thread will keep going strong.
ReplyDeleteIf someone wants a rebuttal posted, and they feel it deserves it's own post, you can email me at trubluniteATgmailDOTcom. Truthfully, I think most rebuttals belong in this thread, but if its well written and you feel strongly, we can talk.
There is no substance to your criticisms here. Is it simply that the game is incomplete? You allude to the 2d20 but don't go into any detail. It's not that I don't believe you, but as someone who is following from the outside but hasn't actually read the playtest rules, I would like to read critiques of specific things not just generalized "this sucks".
ReplyDeleteI have been really happy with everything I have seen so far. Even if 5th doesn't pan out well I think I will be using the playtest stuff as a chassis for my own houseruled B/X game.
ReplyDelete:) ... and now release the shit-storm!
ReplyDelete@Mr Blue: "2d20 might be an innovation, but it's about the only one and it's not terribly impressive."
ReplyDeleteI might agree that it is not impressive, I just like the properties. No auto fail. No auto success. Simple to explain. Easy to roll.
I might steal it just because it is good. So I thought it was worth pointing out that this was a nice change. I agree that I would have preferred 6 to 8 nice changes . . .
mcv:
ReplyDeleteCould you explain what direction you think they should take with the game? Should it have been the complexity of Pathfinder? The predictability of 4e?
Since Mearls seems keen on telling us time and time again how Holmes and B/X are a great inspiration, how about making a game that plays like that? Right now playing an old-school game with it seems rather difficult.
I think in their goal to create a system which allows for multiple "gaming styles", they ended up designing a game that does nothing at all.
Its "modulairity" is the problem. I don't like the new Hit Die healing/healing surge mechanic, but as I understand it, I can just remove them for a deadlier game without touching other subsystems of the game. This seems like a good idea, since it's easier to houserule the system, as opposed to, say, 4E, in which all healing spells depended on healing surges.
However, old-school play depends highly on the interaction and go-and-forth of game mechanics. For example, the way open door rolls interact with random encounter rolls, open locks and the knock spell: kicking in a door makes noise and attracts wandering monsters, but the thief's open locks or the magic-user's knock spell can open it without noise.
Another example would be the interaction between surprise rolls, morale checks, and the lethality of fights.
Designing these interactions is what game design is. Remove those interactions between game elements, and there's nothing left. I think that's why people are saying the game has no direction: there really isn't that much there.
I agree with you, though, on the simplicity of the rules. I like it too.
@Jasper Polane: A lot of OSR gamers seem to think that this playtest version does feel a lot like that. Not completely, of course. Race and class are independent and will remain so. Thief skills work very differently. But my impression is that the only real obstacle to old school gaming are the hit die healing and the at-wills, and those are very easy to take out.
ReplyDeleteLike you say, I think it's very intentional that the "hit die" (bad name, but that's another issue) system is not as intertwined with the rest of the system as it was in 4e.
The interaction between opening doors and random encounters is very easily inserted by a future Old School Module. Random encounters are very much an old school thing, and not terribly popular elsewhere, so they're probably not going to put those in the basic book (though they might!). The idea that picking a lock takes time, while kicking it in makes noise, is not something that requires a complex set of rules that need to be intricately connected to every other part of the system.
My impression is that they're currently focusing on the real core, and from there you can add either the random encounter, noise and surprise module for an OSR-style game, or all the detailed character generation stuff to appease the 3.5 fans, or the tactical combat system for the 4e fans. Or you can mix and match those styles if that's what you want.
I think it can be done, though I admit it's questionable whether it's going to be better at it than the systems that do only that one thing.
On all the complaints and discussion about innovation or lack thereof: does it really matter? Is a system only worthwhile if it's innovative? Can't it just be good?
ReplyDeleteThey said at the start that they were going to look back at all the old editions and try to preserve all the good elements of all the old editions. They were not interesting in making something completely new, in the way 3e and 4e were new in their day. Those were completely new systems that allowed completely new things, but also dropped a lot of things, and arguably didn't really deserve the name D&D because they were too different from what D&D used to be.
Personally I think taking all the parts that people loved about all previous editions and try to make a system that can do it all, is definitely a worthy approach, and as a goal in itself even innovative, even if the elements they're using for it aren't innovative in themselves.
We're not complaining, we're discussing it. That's what WotC asked us to do, right?
ReplyDelete