tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post6479914066961029892..comments2024-03-27T20:09:00.283-04:00Comments on Tenkar's Tavern: When Did Gaming Become a Hotbed for Social Issues? (Rant Warning)Tenkarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-928749024180123742014-08-11T15:06:51.866-04:002014-08-11T15:06:51.866-04:00Late to the party as usual. I considered respondi...Late to the party as usual. I considered responding to this post with a blog post of my own, but what I have to say won't really take very long. <br /><br />Everyone's got opinions, prejudices, and agendas of varying degrees. Humans swarm to conflict and make their nests in drama. At least people are talking about Dungeons & Dragons, even if tangentially. That's the most important thing... well, from my perspective, anyway.<br /><br />Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-84656636544546581932014-08-10T21:57:48.755-04:002014-08-10T21:57:48.755-04:00someone had to say it that wasn't actively inv...someone had to say it that wasn't actively involved in any of the current pissing matches.<br /><br />strangely enough, the reaction to this post was mostly the same, no matter gender, sexual orientation, race - whatever:<br /><br />stop making gaming, a naturally inclusionary activity, into a social issue battleground.<br /><br />well, except for a handful of self appointed male white social justice warriors who had to tell me I was all wrong because of the "male white privilege label" I apparently wear but need to accept and adjust my opinions to be more like theirs (and not those of the ones they claim to represent, mind you).<br /><br />yeah, ain't happening.<br /><br />i judge folks for who they are, not their labels which do nothing but divide anyway.<br /><br />well, except for the social justice warriors - they can go fuck themselves :)Tenkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-45987277568807177692014-08-10T18:16:38.763-04:002014-08-10T18:16:38.763-04:00My apologies +ProfesserOats. I thought I read the...My apologies +ProfesserOats. I thought I read the thread better than that! Parrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16865183160676268484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-72851714175154745172014-08-10T16:41:10.506-04:002014-08-10T16:41:10.506-04:00Great comments Gwarth. I chimed in more but I don...Great comments Gwarth. I chimed in more but I don't think I could add much.infocydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06717475066074726136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-19805010122924441332014-08-10T16:27:46.843-04:002014-08-10T16:27:46.843-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.infocydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06717475066074726136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-89870834353298010702014-08-10T16:20:22.612-04:002014-08-10T16:20:22.612-04:00Erik, thanks for posting this. I've noticed a...Erik, thanks for posting this. I've noticed an uptick in politically correct fascism trying to assert itself in every area of life. When I roll dice and game it is about having fun and leaving the real world and all it's issues behind, for a little while. I don't need reminders of the culture war shoved in my face in my sanctuary. I think your idea of trimming your G+ circles is a good one. That is what I ended up doing. You want to be a little fascist go do it on someone else's feed was my response. I'm happier for doing so.infocydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06717475066074726136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-48347345976153239762014-08-09T05:56:19.665-04:002014-08-09T05:56:19.665-04:00Have you ever considered that Identifying as a Gay...Have you ever considered that Identifying as a Gay Gamer or a Black Gamer or a Atheist Gamer (what have you) can have the opposite effect.<br /><br />That is not excluding you because of your statement but your in a way segregating yourself a bit making that distinction no?<br /><br />What does RPG Table-top Gaming, or Card Games, or Swimming for that matter have to do with being Gay, Black, Atheist? Nothing. By default it's inclusive, they are all, all encompassing inclusive hobbies. <br /><br />It's not the books that need to spell out every possible minority group is welcome to partake in said pastime, It's the people that you will be partaking in said pastime with that need to be inclusive. <br /><br />WotC could write a 10 page introduction covering every ethnicity, sexual gender identity and religious group and what would it achive? I mean really what? It doesn't matter what the text of the books say as long as they aren't explicitly exclusionary. The default is all inclusiveness.<br /><br />The issue is with individuals not the hobby or the books themselves.Gwarhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15245346128436771591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-22668313048439620832014-08-09T05:49:24.890-04:002014-08-09T05:49:24.890-04:00You've nailed it. For them it is about Exclusi...You've nailed it. For them it is about Exclusion isn't it, not Inclusion.<br /><br />They use the rhetoric of SJW to give the appearance of validity to their personal grudges against Zak S. & the Pundit because they prefer Old-School gaming sensibilities over Story-Game sensibilities.<br /><br />No one is stopping anyone from making an RPG or RPG Community that fits their view of how gaming should be. Go for it, knock yourself out. Just don't try to tell anyone else to change what they are playing or how they are playing it.<br />Gwarhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15245346128436771591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-44679029869033453492014-08-09T05:21:00.398-04:002014-08-09T05:21:00.398-04:00My main point is compared to my other geek hobbies...My main point is compared to my other geek hobbies of last 30 years diversity of gender and ethnicity has increased but less than anime (pretty much run by women in my circles compared to zero in 80's) and comics (which even my local papers have commented on increase of female fans to over 50%). <br /><br />I cant say ive seen over the top examples of inclusiveness.yet so i cant really comment on it. <br /><br />Most of sledging and trolling i get over game blogging uses homophobic so called slurs. People think im Chinese at least once a week. Im neither of these things and dont consider them insults to me personally no matter intention of troll. Bad stereotyping pretty thriving in scene so im always glad to have people find it untrue in their experience. Im happy to annoy people who think i should consider these things insults.Konsumterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18170560484656800416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-33986351390993226262014-08-09T04:04:37.829-04:002014-08-09T04:04:37.829-04:00Given what adventurers spend their gold on, I just...Given what adventurers spend their gold on, I just sort of assumed they *all* had syphilis. DMWieghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03682249561077936507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-18239320775782082752014-08-09T00:40:44.044-04:002014-08-09T00:40:44.044-04:00I may not have lead with that, but I did mention b...I may not have lead with that, but I did mention being gay in my commentHolly Oatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01703437987958922954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-1841162905078577232014-08-08T23:59:28.135-04:002014-08-08T23:59:28.135-04:00Totally as a sort of related aside, the new 5E Pla...Totally as a sort of related aside, the new 5E Player's Handbook is probably the most artistically inclusive book I've seen and in the RPG sphere that's a goal few have ever even attempted. It takes a while to spot the generic white males in this book, and so far, even after reading through twice I can't find even a cleavage shot. Every gal in the PHB is dressed for serious business.<br /><br />I not only could hand this book to my son when he's older without worry (though lets be honest he might not be as excited about it without a bit of cleavage somewhere inside by then) I could even hand this frickin book to my mother and she would be hard pressed to find anything offensive (not that my mother's actually easily offended like that).Doctor Futurityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02586371999646337047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-82716091126550128602014-08-08T18:44:53.649-04:002014-08-08T18:44:53.649-04:00How come there are no iconic RPG characters with s...How come there are no iconic RPG characters with syphilis? An anti-syphilitic agenda? Would it be so hard to include a line or two in every book about how you can play a syphilitic character?Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-75743866973512389972014-08-08T18:41:14.757-04:002014-08-08T18:41:14.757-04:00I don't know where this "white male"...I don't know where this "white male" b.s. comes from. You have ethnographic data on all the players?<br /><br />I'm Latino and the last game I played we had a Cambodian male, a Eurasian female, and two Caucasian males at the table. Whether anyone was gay, I have no idea because who the hell cares and why would that even come up?<br /><br />As for the lack of women: most women I've met just have no interest in sitting at a table rolling dice and pretending to be elves and hobbits. So we should obviously force them to do so just like we force men to join knitting circles.<br /><br />What a crock of crap.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-5413555188469268112014-08-08T16:26:35.003-04:002014-08-08T16:26:35.003-04:00Really? I thought it was directed at Joe.
Whatev...Really? I thought it was directed at Joe. <br /><br />Whatever. I'm not angry, just tired of all the talk about who is telling who about how to play what. Maybe someday this will all calm down, and we can all, you know, roll dice and shut up and all that. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-69669828857246810152014-08-08T15:33:33.543-04:002014-08-08T15:33:33.543-04:00I disagree with what Erik is saying here. Not rea...I disagree with what Erik is saying here. Not really in a big way, but I think it is important that we all say that these groups have a place in gaming. We are targets. You notice no response started...as a black gamer....as a gay gamer... And it does not make one racist to say "we don't have to state the obvious, gaming is about inclusion", bit it does not sound good.Parrishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16865183160676268484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-57776283566809330762014-08-08T15:12:36.354-04:002014-08-08T15:12:36.354-04:00^^that's for Eli, not you, Erik.^^that's for Eli, not you, Erik.p1r8z0rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02232264043854801391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-4657616429928503972014-08-08T15:06:10.408-04:002014-08-08T15:06:10.408-04:00Two toxic members of the hobby that just happened ...Two toxic members of the hobby that just happened to be vetted alongside other luminaries like Jeff Grubb as consultants on the new edition? <br /><br />WOTC has made some epic blunders in the past, but they're not that dumb. And neither am I.<br /><br />Please focus your anger towards something that matters. p1r8z0rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02232264043854801391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-46088557918534608892014-08-08T11:00:47.588-04:002014-08-08T11:00:47.588-04:00There are jerks on all sides, and persecution comp...There are jerks on all sides, and persecution complexes, and so many p.o.v.s being expressed that I can't tell who/what *in particular* that you mean... but yeah, there is increasing polarization from what I've seen. I suppose part of it is that a certain segment of the gaming crowd is so into gaming that they want to take their activism here rather than other spheres where they are less engaged? But Vincent Florio is probably onto something with the mindset about 'it has to be in the rules or it is not allowed' mentality. <br />I blame a lot of it on the etiquette of internet interaction (or lack thereof) and the rhetorical skills of most gamers (or lack thereof) ... way too much knee-jerk tribalism and way too little reasoned argument. It seems like very few even want to understand other points of view. It's toxic enough that I don't read forums, G+, or most blog comments areas any more. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-80376417090295777892014-08-08T09:22:59.993-04:002014-08-08T09:22:59.993-04:00I've defended those "toxic" individu...I've defended those "toxic" individuals in a previous post, as they were unjustly accused of holding positions they DO NOT hold.<br /><br />This post is about the social justice warriors that are pushing their agendas when and where it is not needed and attacking those that disagree with them.<br /><br />There are no shades of grey with social justice warriors.Tenkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-77765015293997958912014-08-08T08:36:39.965-04:002014-08-08T08:36:39.965-04:00You, right there, are the problem. They're not...You, right there, are the problem. They're not "toxic." They have opinions, and they may differ from yours, but that doesn't entitle you or anyone else to try to drive them out of the industry.Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-58970671094458700822014-08-08T08:20:54.438-04:002014-08-08T08:20:54.438-04:00It doesn't need to be defined in a book, a pla...It doesn't need to be defined in a book, a player should just come up with it as their character and be allowed to play it. I play AD&D 1e and have since I picked it up. I am currently running a game, its been going on for at least 6 months now. I have player in the game, he decided his character was androgynous. Why? because he thought it would be interesting for a character concept. Is he androgynous himself? no, does he want to be? who knows, who cares. I had another player in my group, never touched a roleplaying game in her life, mostly played playstation games, pc games..etc.. Her first character was a female fighter who only liked women. Was she gay? I don't know. Did I care about her concept of character? nope. When that character died, she decided to play a male fighter who liked guys. <br /><br />Point of all this is, it doesn't need to written in a book for it to happen. This goes back to the whole argument that the newer editions feel its necessary to cover everything and give the people the feeling of, "if its not in the book, its not possible" mentality.The Evil Dungeon Masterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10825613960264448920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-71106778263531926262014-08-08T07:59:04.480-04:002014-08-08T07:59:04.480-04:00I always have a problem with movements that suppor...I always have a problem with movements that support a "subtractive" approach to social issues - changing something that already exists, or attempting to remove it altogether instead of *adding to* what's already there. Don't like that there aren't enough realistic superheroes of a certain race/gender/sexuality/religion/etc.? Does a game not have adequate representation of something you find important? Do existing groups not have enough representation of a certain type of person? Don't demonize what's there. MAKE ONE. Set an example. If there's a stigma, show them how silly it is. People will follow good examples, and shun negative ones. <br /><br />We all create primarily based on our own experiences, desires and worldviews. It's going to be harder to change someone else's creation to match your ideals. A CIS White Male writer is probably not going to capture every. single. possible. viewpoint. out there, simply because they don't live those lives. No one should be trying to erase something/someone from the hobby; they should be branching out and adding to it, instead. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01248790546301588588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-21179030144454344822014-08-08T06:39:54.653-04:002014-08-08T06:39:54.653-04:00so you understand what set me off i see ;)so you understand what set me off i see ;)Tenkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-27489524896991958912014-08-08T06:38:00.843-04:002014-08-08T06:38:00.843-04:00my issue isn't the message but the holier than...my issue isn't the message but the holier than tho messengers, where if you don't agree 100% you are deemed evil and yadda yadda.<br /><br />i'm all for inclusiveness in the hobby. I'm against the idea that not having a woman / specific race / specific gender preference in your gaming group makes you a sexist / racist / genderist.<br /><br />And yes, I've been told that not having a woman in my gaming group is sexist. Tenkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.com