tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post4937513846048747168..comments2024-03-27T20:09:00.283-04:00Comments on Tenkar's Tavern: Is the Thief a Needed Member of the Adventuring Party?Tenkarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-34466746265792080102014-07-02T22:01:44.479-04:002014-07-02T22:01:44.479-04:00I take your point to a certain extent, but I think...I take your point to a certain extent, but I think you are glossing over the fact that "magic" as a thematic element is very important to most fantasy settings, and it completely loses its meaning if there is nothing "mundane" to compare it to. Nobody pretends that someone within our real world could accomplish what Bruce Wayne does as Batman, but it is still an important theme within the D.C. Universe that he works withing the limitations of being a "mundane" being, in contrast to the likes of Superman or Wonder Woman. SurrenderMonkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01867098480604057724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-91780466814241082492014-07-02T11:01:37.327-04:002014-07-02T11:01:37.327-04:00The supernatural is only separate from the mundane...The supernatural is only separate from the mundane in a fantasy RPG when there is something that set them apart. In D&D the only explicit element is the selection of a character class as there is no supernatural spark in place and there is nothing else that separates a Cleric from a Magic-User, a Fighter, or a Thief (aside from a possible ability score requirement that is not applied or consistent across editions and clones) except for selection of character class.<br /><br />What is or isn't mundane is pretty nebulous in a game played by the rules that lets a 9th level fighter walk off a cliff and keep on fighting. JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-56938691304962747642014-07-01T18:26:07.495-04:002014-07-01T18:26:07.495-04:00Oh and as for low thief skill values at low level,...Oh and as for low thief skill values at low level, it's just one of many countless reasons I liked AD&D 2E best of all, where you got an allotment of skill points to distribute each level, which let you make your thief the way you wanted to.Doctor Futurityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02586371999646337047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-9659167880671150502014-07-01T18:23:28.396-04:002014-07-01T18:23:28.396-04:00Considering that the first character to live two s...Considering that the first character to live two sessions a row in my old days was a thief, I'd say yes. My sister played her elven thief/MU for a decade and a half. <br /><br />As I see it, thieves are there for players who want someone that's not a bulky murderer, cloistered healer or a robed artillery hurler. The thief is that quiet guy who doesn't want to be noticed and likes to look at the treasure first. He is loathed when he's present and missed when he isn't. Doctor Futurityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02586371999646337047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-48612056154000657822014-07-01T17:51:25.503-04:002014-07-01T17:51:25.503-04:00"Hiding in in shadows, moving silently, getti..."Hiding in in shadows, moving silently, getting better at hearing noises, climbing walls ... how are those not supernatural skills?" <br /><br />I believe the clear assumption is that they are not, although you are free to define it however you like in your fantasy game. To answer your question, it is not necessary to attribute exceptional skill at otherwise mundane tasks to supernatural sources, whereas the supernatural provenance of the powers Clerics and Magic-users is explicit.SurrenderMonkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01867098480604057724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-33432719099729841282014-07-01T06:11:30.912-04:002014-07-01T06:11:30.912-04:00This topic comes up every couple of months repeate...This topic comes up every couple of months repeatedly. It is almost the cry for attention post of the OSR.<br /><br />Ascending vs descending AC is next.<br /><br />Followed by variable weapon damage.John Middletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995017823921643745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-30086922524170425952014-07-01T06:09:53.306-04:002014-07-01T06:09:53.306-04:00They also have a skill to make sandwiches on fancy...They also have a skill to make sandwiches on fancy bread.John Middletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995017823921643745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-29425281459287245452014-07-01T03:15:36.367-04:002014-07-01T03:15:36.367-04:00Wasn't this topic done to death on Grognardia?...Wasn't this topic done to death on Grognardia?Allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06555983863617446174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-90749907801452241392014-07-01T00:14:58.580-04:002014-07-01T00:14:58.580-04:00Rather than get all skills at 1st level but have a...Rather than get all skills at 1st level but have a shitty chance to succeed, maybe try giving the thief 2 abilities at first level, pick up one new one per level, but give him over 50% to succeed as soon as he gets it. <br /><br />I'm doing that with my Pirates game Scoundrel class. <br /><br />You could also offer up assassin and bard abilities to take instead of thief stuff. Not the whole package-- no magic perhaps-- but just one or two interesting abilities. <br /><br />Relegate backstab, read languages, scroll use, poison use, bardic lore, music buffs to the same status as climb or open a lock. Then just pick and choose at each level. Scott Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067161332003628237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-57794862093885187302014-06-30T22:53:57.834-04:002014-06-30T22:53:57.834-04:00Tom, mine is a dumbed down version of 2E, which ga...Tom, mine is a dumbed down version of 2E, which gave 60% at 1 and 30% each additional. Mine is slightly less power handed, and seems to work a bit better at the mid levels.R.J. Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17096180855518446449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-63589774314912064432014-06-30T22:31:35.674-04:002014-06-30T22:31:35.674-04:00Elven Thief Magic user - my favorite class combo e...Elven Thief Magic user - my favorite class combo ever. Even if you play by the "Level limits for non humans" rules still can be 11 mu and unlimited thief. You can play as a MU with some extra hitpoints and better AC - or you can be a thief with access to unlock cantrips, knock spells, unseen servants, invisibility, and a host of other useful thiefly spells - And every once in a while you can sneak up invisibly on someone, maybe even a boss, hasted, with deadly strike on you, and just waste them with a backstab for godawful damage. Course if you don't kill them, you may die in the next round, but thats what makes life interesting - right? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12566987959812923367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-30668730733098538692014-06-30T19:02:48.465-04:002014-06-30T19:02:48.465-04:00Thieves have a mobility edge in climb walls which ...Thieves have a mobility edge in climb walls which trumps the mobility options of all other classes at low level: climb walls. Its only of no benefit if all your dungeons are two dimensional.JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-77586576073314759112014-06-30T18:17:59.870-04:002014-06-30T18:17:59.870-04:00I like your house rule. I always disliked how low ...I like your house rule. I always disliked how low thief numbers were at low levels; this is a nice fix IMO.Chris C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08655640273250716377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-67831027061521072142014-06-30T18:07:29.833-04:002014-06-30T18:07:29.833-04:00I always want the Thief to work. I want my players...I always want the Thief to work. I want my players to want to play a Thief. Thieves to me are the quintessential adventurer. But their low chances of success at the things that they are meant to be good at requires some... thing. One of the problems of Thieves as written is the clause that they may only make one attempt to open a lock per level. That needs doing away with - and I'm sad that it is in ACKS, which is my favourite B/X/BECM derived ruleset. Having Thieves spend *time* in order to succeed means that they become far more useful, but spending time has consequences.which introduces interesting choices. Do you wait another turn while the Thief fumbles with the lock? <br /><br />In addition, allowing Thieves to allocate their skill points (ala AD&D 2e or LotFP) means that a first level Thief likely has a level of competency in at least one suite of skills that is the equivalent to his peers of other classes. Finally, if you are playing AD&D 2e, allowing the Thief to be a bit of a jack-of-all-trades using the non-weapon proficiency system gives them the feel of experienced 'men-of-the-world', while the other 'professional' classes are good at their job.<br /><br />Anyway, I love the idea of thieves, but I''m not sure that any OSR D&D has got them right. AD&D2e is the closest, and LotFP is nifty... Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-48334451250278781952014-06-30T17:34:43.994-04:002014-06-30T17:34:43.994-04:00I've always enjoyed playing Thieves, or runnin...I've always enjoyed playing Thieves, or running games where the party has a Thief. Thing is, if the Thief skill fails, it shouldn't mean automatic springing of a trap, or automatic detection and targeting by the biggest monster (as is usually the consequence). <br /><br />If the Thief's skill roll fails, then the party needs to go into role-play/observation and experimentation mode.<br /><br />That said, I now have a desire to run a game with just an "Adventurer" class, where everyone is able to fight, cast spells, and do "thiefy" things. Use the Cleric class, but allow all weapons, up the hit die to d8 (d10 if AD&D base), combine Cleric and M-U spell lists, and tack on the Thief skills.Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-46896800877675274292014-06-30T16:00:38.983-04:002014-06-30T16:00:38.983-04:00I replaced the Thief class with one called Artisan...I replaced the Thief class with one called Artisans, which is a skills specialist. Turned the Thief abilities into skills. With that said, every group in my campaigns need a wide variety of skills and at least one Artisan. They handle both the traditional thief stuff, particularly hear noise type activity, and other skills they choose outside of the usual Thief bailiwick.Pippin Stranohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13832001332414676400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-67866803342228255642014-06-30T15:57:58.500-04:002014-06-30T15:57:58.500-04:00Thieves can be a pretty cool component to an adven...Thieves can be a pretty cool component to an adventuring party, but the way D&D handles them sucks. Among the few things 3e did right was to make Thieves more useful. Without adding too many more rules you could:<br />A) increase their chances<br />B) say they automatically succeed if they are descriptive.<br />C) alter some basics -- "backstab" becomes "surprise attack," for example.<br />Some people don't like clerics, either. YMMV.Eric R. Wirsinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632409261940844934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-68705464366480872172014-06-30T15:43:26.146-04:002014-06-30T15:43:26.146-04:00Dwarven Fighter / Thief... problems solvedDwarven Fighter / Thief... problems solvedAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10592537100855212271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-71756233246729673412014-06-30T15:37:09.649-04:002014-06-30T15:37:09.649-04:00In many system's you have to deal with a d4 fo...In many system's you have to deal with a d4 for hp's to. One more thing half the time how is back stab a option with the horrible move silently, hide rolls that you don't even know if you succeed (and in all honestly at lev 1-5 might as well assume you just fail!) Some fixes I like/have tried:<br />1 D6 hp<br />2 Dex x 3-5 extra % points at first level for the player to place wherever they want.<br />3 Or as listed above with the D6 mechanic replacing % completely. I really like the specialist class from Lotfp. jvineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108835731517840359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-77503917606622725002014-06-30T15:13:35.387-04:002014-06-30T15:13:35.387-04:00Well, something I've come to realize, at least...Well, something I've come to realize, at least for my gaming group, that "the thing in the game you really enjoy? Yeah, DON'T play that class." If you like combat and coming up with neat tactics and crazy battles, don't play a fighter. Fighters default option is "stand there and hit the thing until it stops bothering me." If you like traps and puzzles, don't play a thief, because when confronted with a bizarre and obviously trapped floor, they "use their skills till it stops being a threat." If you like talking with NPC's and figuring out mysteries and what is going on with who, don't play a bard (3rd ed style), cause they can default to rolling skills or casting Charm Person. <br /><br />It's one of the reasons I'm starting to get away from classed based games--in my experience, they seem to end up working against what's fun.chimericalrealmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561091456312911472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-36933471117321229362014-06-30T15:02:47.478-04:002014-06-30T15:02:47.478-04:00I love the thief! I like the house rules that boos...I love the thief! I like the house rules that boost the % chances a bit and let them specialize in a couple of the skills. They are fun, and if played right they bring allot of opportunity for role playing to the table. Can a party survive without one? Sure, but I wouldn't want to!Blakdout36https://www.blogger.com/profile/01635021599847672494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-55333292220693384912014-06-30T14:19:13.044-04:002014-06-30T14:19:13.044-04:00Loathe the thief class. Always have. I've neve...Loathe the thief class. Always have. I've never found it to add anything enjoyable to play, either as a player or a DM. Flambeauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133131881423202010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-43769219910802049182014-06-30T14:11:24.819-04:002014-06-30T14:11:24.819-04:00Exactly. They add some archetypes for variety to ...Exactly. They add some archetypes for variety to streamline character creation, or to spur players who are unsure about a new character.<br /><br />They are not handcuffs for how all other classes can interact with the world.John Middletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995017823921643745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-56857950275103009762014-06-30T14:09:49.187-04:002014-06-30T14:09:49.187-04:00I love playing a thief and find then fun and chall...I love playing a thief and find then fun and challenging.<br /><br />Fighters on the other and, are dull as hell.John Middletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995017823921643745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-76400025227725927372014-06-30T14:08:04.686-04:002014-06-30T14:08:04.686-04:00Also...Eric what does "thinking out load"...Also...Eric what does "thinking out load" mean? Is that code for posting from the water closet?John Middletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995017823921643745noreply@blogger.com