tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post4476823199529843116..comments2024-03-27T20:09:00.283-04:00Comments on Tenkar's Tavern: Is the Main OSR Division Descending / Ascending Armor Class?Tenkarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-33695550170166114382023-06-07T18:42:28.550-04:002023-06-07T18:42:28.550-04:00It takes less time for me to convert every single ...It takes less time for me to convert every single NPC and monster in a campaign to ascending ac than to check for a damned table in the middle of a book. Using descending ac is just stubborness. There was literally no reason to instaurate DAC than being high af on potJack Tremainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906068267967864239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-72041931983183175662021-06-27T09:59:24.455-04:002021-06-27T09:59:24.455-04:00I know I'm years late here (as in most things)...I know I'm years late here (as in most things) but what finally dragged me over to ascending AC in the past six months was playing with people brand new to RPGs. It was just much easier for them to grasp, especially when they were simultaneously trying to learn everything else, such as what the different dice are and when they are used. Having started playing B/X in 1981 this was not an easy decision for me, but boy has it speeded up the combats in my games. So now we're alternating between OSE for B/X style play and Castles & Crusades for the "advanced" experience. However, I also love the single saving throw used in Swords & Wizardry so I'm thinking about adopting that for OSE too. Don't need to so much for C&C because how the siege engine works.Persimmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02966572602767972805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-32961584923328653952013-01-27T00:11:44.482-05:002013-01-27T00:11:44.482-05:00I elected to use Ascending AC in Basic Fantasy RPG...I elected to use Ascending AC in Basic Fantasy RPG, not because of any worries about WoTC, but because I prefer it.<br /><br />(Also, I omitted alignment because I got sick of arguing about it decades ago...)<br />Chris Gonnermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09491320279165054124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-65728969365448372602013-01-26T15:36:29.314-05:002013-01-26T15:36:29.314-05:00Thank goodness, I'm not the only one. :-)Thank goodness, I'm not the only one. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-24900798355519138682013-01-26T13:55:16.203-05:002013-01-26T13:55:16.203-05:00I am in favour of ascending AC myself. But I belie...I am in favour of ascending AC myself. But I believe it really is more on how the two systems are presented. Really, they are the same thing it is just hard to visualize.<br />What if the terminology was changed to<br />Your armor penalty?<br />Everyone is assumed to be wearing battle gear and be relatively quick in reflexes. So, the baseline AC penalty is 0.<br />If you wear something less... say chain mail, then your AC penalty is 5.<br />If you wear noting, then your AC penalty is 9<br />It makes a bit more sense to me when it is stated this way. Now, I am not saying it is better, just that its a trick of the mind what is intuitive.Random Wizardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16200875405900408519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-43802628259593705792013-01-26T12:31:24.805-05:002013-01-26T12:31:24.805-05:00Descending AC isn't a deal breaker for me.Descending AC isn't a deal breaker for me.JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-53395136897465525552013-01-26T10:56:34.930-05:002013-01-26T10:56:34.930-05:00I use both, depending on whether I feel like looki...I use both, depending on whether I feel like looking for the chart or doing the math or what the player understands. Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-70554109603327301122013-01-26T10:43:11.021-05:002013-01-26T10:43:11.021-05:00I favor ascending armor class, but I'm not a r...I favor ascending armor class, but I'm not a raging partisan. The deal breaker for me is alignment and especially alignment languages (yuck!!). If old school means lawful good grammar, then I'm not old school. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-31148203351685608382013-01-26T10:13:30.054-05:002013-01-26T10:13:30.054-05:00The descending armor class approach still makes no...The descending armor class approach still makes no sense to me at all. It's totally counter-intuitive. It is one of the things which led me to drop the original D&D after just a couple sessions. In terms of game design I really prefer an approach where armor absorbs damage rather than being factored into To Hit.Priddayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988483528642234280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-27049063342541192892013-01-26T09:27:09.770-05:002013-01-26T09:27:09.770-05:00Here is an interesting experiment (to me).
Say tha...Here is an interesting experiment (to me).<br />Say that you are using ascending AC and you want your players to write down on their character sheet a based chance to hit an unarmoured opponent. You want this so the players can internalize the numbers and know their basic chances.<br />So an unarmored opponent is AC 10.<br />The player would start adding up their bonuses (say +2 str, +1 for level, +1 for some magic item) and substract that from 10<br />So they write down their THAC10 is 6<br />And as a GM you convert monsters AC by taking off 10 and describing it as a difficulty modifier. So a kobolds AC of 15 becomes a +5 difficulty modifier.<br />The player takes their THAC10 of 6, adds 5 to get 11 and that is their target number to role.<br />This system is what I liked about the older THAC0. It really has nothing to do with ascending or descending. It is more about how you make notation of the system, and where you do the math.Random Wizardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16200875405900408519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-48749233529056432302013-01-26T08:23:38.612-05:002013-01-26T08:23:38.612-05:00After playing Champions for four years straight, i...After playing Champions for four years straight, it is really hard to get why people get so excited about such a trivial difference.Alex J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00147269991231314528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-27054244833371954752013-01-26T07:18:08.816-05:002013-01-26T07:18:08.816-05:00I like using the tables - it's the no math ver...I like using the tables - it's the no math version.jgbrowninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274622778419965618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-86701694056135028612013-01-26T06:32:05.887-05:002013-01-26T06:32:05.887-05:00I think descending armour class was one of the mai...I think descending armour class was one of the main things that put me off <i>D&D</i> when I first started gaming. I couldn't get my head around it and moved on to other games.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-34411511865546983052013-01-26T04:56:35.210-05:002013-01-26T04:56:35.210-05:00I've never tried adding AAC to my old school g...I've never tried adding AAC to my old school games. Neither have I ever understood the problem people have with descending AC. As a player I simply ask the DM "what's their armour class?" He tells me, my eyes momentarily flick down to the bottom of my character sheet to locate the number needed and I attempt to roll that number or higher. This doesn't even require any thought, let alone calculation. All I have to do is move my eyeballs slightly.<br /><br />As a DM I have an additional couple of flicks of my eyeballs, they flick down to the table to check attackers level...flick across, defender's AC....flick down, number needed. And then I roll the dice. This might take me a second or two longer than as a player, and while I've had to do a teeny bit more thinking, once again I haven't had to do any calculation because the table has done it for me - and the result is right in front of my eyes on the back of my DM screen. <br /><br />Why would I want to add a string of numbers in my head? I'm too lazy for that. I honestly don't understand the problem. :-) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-19977941124852380452013-01-26T03:36:19.685-05:002013-01-26T03:36:19.685-05:00I dunno, I find that it works ok exactly the same....I dunno, I find that it works ok exactly the same. Either way, I need to determine the target number needed on the d20n BEFORE the d20 is rolled, to avoid painful post-roll calculation (worst with multiple attacks!)<br /><br />With descending AC I have to deduct THACO from AC to determine target number.<br />With ascending AC I have to deduct to-hit bonus from AC to determine target number.<br /><br />Descending is a bit harder with high level PCs - negative ACs and often negative THAC0; I think it's slightly easier at low level.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-16501870755981712402013-01-25T23:30:58.646-05:002013-01-25T23:30:58.646-05:00I prefer Ascending AC. It's just more intuitiv...I prefer Ascending AC. It's just more intuitive for me. S&W shows it's super easy to convert by including a Base Attack Bonus AND a hit-table/matrix. And converting AC on the fly is simple, just subtract from 19. But, yeah. BAB is just THAC0 backwards, or something. The math would be the same if there weren't AC limits in AD&D.Reverend Dakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589927717583694031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-50694338625002513762013-01-25T23:30:14.985-05:002013-01-25T23:30:14.985-05:00It's really not that much effort to change 1e ...It's really not that much effort to change 1e to ascending AC. Just have to re-do the tables once which took me about 30 minutes.<br /><br />What I also did was to go to ascending saves (and go from 5 saves to 3 from 3e). That seems to be the real line in OSR - a number of OSR games use ascending AC, but I don't think any use ascending saves (though Blood & Treasure also adopts the 3 save).Jeremyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06440605975564288373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-83428643670125434182013-01-25T23:19:05.042-05:002013-01-25T23:19:05.042-05:00Played both way and I much prefer ascending AC. I...Played both way and I much prefer ascending AC. I do have to say that doing THAC0 for years has made me better at doing math in my head than my kids are. However I just decided that the difference between Old School and d20 is the amount of <a href="http://alesmiter.blogspot.com/2013/01/xp-evolution-orc.html" rel="nofollow">experience you get for slaying an orc</a>. To be honest, I'm kind of blown away by the game impact the difference makes.Rod Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12824146866756155345noreply@blogger.com