tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post3374748191747004517..comments2024-03-17T22:08:39.591-04:00Comments on Tenkar's Tavern: Rant - Comparing What is To What You Might Have Done But Didn't Do is Just so Much Bull....Tenkarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-17744963631219985072015-05-26T21:01:05.542-04:002015-05-26T21:01:05.542-04:00Not really the same thing. By your standard every...Not really the same thing. By your standard every movie is great because the audience didn't make one to compare to it. There is a difference between saying "This sucks" and saying "I could do better ."Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-49280189562989009702015-05-21T18:35:51.724-04:002015-05-21T18:35:51.724-04:00Michael: The games products you're talking ab...Michael: The games products you're talking about are exactly the kind that I'm interested in making. If you haven't seen it yet, there's Arrows of Indra, and within a month or two we'll be releasing my new book, "Dark Albion: the Rose War", which will be D&D for deep-historical gritty European fantasy. It's going to be 280 pages long give or take, I've seen the second-to-last layout proofs and its beautiful, and it really won't be like any other D&D setting I've ever seen.<br /><br />So again, maybe you just haven't noticed that those types of products that go beyond the "2 giant rats and 2000cp" rut that a lot of the JMal-branch of the OSR gets itself stuck in is _already here_?<br /><br />RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-66310591256617100922015-05-20T20:34:21.239-04:002015-05-20T20:34:21.239-04:00Damn good question and I'll pose it to the com...Damn good question and I'll pose it to the community. After 40 years, how much is / can / will be truly new.<br /><br />BTW Mike, I encourage guest posts at The Tavern. If you ever want to borrow the "soapbox" for a post or two, just let me know.Tenkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-28846956792761096292015-05-20T16:41:30.220-04:002015-05-20T16:41:30.220-04:00Move beyond White Star for a moment... how do we e...Move beyond White Star for a moment... how do we encourage the next EPT? The thing that really goes beyond the same "orc and pie" or "dusty corner with 2000cp" ad nauseum? When do we get away from the D&D that has been trod and retrod and just "small changes" and really push for the stars? How do we encourage that, grow that? Do we focus on the reskins or do we take those really unique finds and give them the limelight?<br /><br />You're the guy with the blog, which is why I'm asking. Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-9300750375844950982015-05-20T15:42:36.652-04:002015-05-20T15:42:36.652-04:00"WHITE STAR is designed to capture those fast..."WHITE STAR is designed to capture those fast and free halcyon days of<br />interstellar adventure using Swords & Wizardry WhiteBox."<br /><br />"The rules of WHITE STAR, like Swords & Wizardry WhiteBox, are meant as a<br />guideline. They’re fast and loose, like space opera itself. You won’t find a standard<br />campaign setting. Instead, use these rules as a toolbox to design your own thrilling<br />adventures in a galaxy that never was – and if you can’t find a rule in these pages<br />then just make it up!"<br /><br />This is from James' introduction. Did he succeed in presenting what he hoped to? Did he achieve his stated goals?<br /><br />White Star is a direct offspring is S&W White Box - that was always the intention. It moves familiar rules to a sci-fi assumption instead of a fantasy one. It succeeds in this extremely well, not by large steps of innovation but small changes to those familiar rules.<br /><br />No one, especially James, is making claims that White Star is the next EPT or was intended to be such.<br /><br />It may well spawn the next EPT, as it has gotten numerous content creators invigorated. Time will tell.<br /><br />I do think the familiarity to it's source material is what has driven much of the community to embrace it.Tenkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-23522274261890855162015-05-20T14:12:23.488-04:002015-05-20T14:12:23.488-04:00As a side note - if I plug in some of the games I&...As a side note - if I plug in some of the games I've seen come out lately in place of Adam's Whitebox deriviation, this post still stands: http://oldguyrpg.blogspot.com/2011/01/wheres-our-ept-and-blackmoor-is-osr.html<br /><br />I think that's where some of us snap (and still snap in painful ways) when we see a reskin as the "next best thing." <br /><br />However, this whole thing, and your post, has led me to remember Urutsk and I need to go reread that now... cheers!Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-10658276127969713182015-05-20T14:01:34.842-04:002015-05-20T14:01:34.842-04:00You know, I wrote about this 4 or 5 years ago... w...You know, I wrote about this 4 or 5 years ago... where is our EPT, our Blackmoor? That came out of what I guess you could call the "first wave" of the retroclones and the going back and seeing what the original desigenrs were about and where could we go now with it. I see S&W as one of the better examples of that.<br /><br />I know there are some interesting games that people will more than happily show up as exemplars of something good that came out of all that, but the point I was making was "go somewhere completely new and different, like Barker and Arneson did." <br /><br />I think it holds true to this day and, to JB's credit, that is what I took away from his post... that this game may hit a lot of geek sweet spots (and like him, I'm curious why XPlorers never did that, timing, maybe?) but does it really go beyond a reskin? <br /><br />I think at the end of the day, that's the discussion to have, not if JB was "fair" or if Wheaties taste good with criticism. Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-75569747915682317282015-05-20T13:43:21.098-04:002015-05-20T13:43:21.098-04:00I see JB's criticism of the expo system in par...I see JB's criticism of the expo system in particular to be fairly accurate, but as White Star is a direct descendant of White Box understand why it is what it is (as I've never done expo BTB in all my years of gaming, it didn't stand out to me.)<br /><br />It was very unfair to compare production qualities of a small publisher to FFG. That was apples to onions.Tenkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-19987351644440759682015-05-20T10:14:11.189-04:002015-05-20T10:14:11.189-04:00Thing is the way. White Star and other OSR games a...Thing is the way. White Star and other OSR games are structgured it is very possible to just do it your way in supplements or an advanced game.<br /><br />I like white star becasue it provides an identifiable framework with familair rules to add on to. It's as easy as pie to shift from the quasi star wars vibe by dumping Star Knightd as a PC.<br />as you can easily grab classes from other games and add them to a campaign.<br /><br />There are tighter OSR compatible games out there but in being tighter they are tied closer to their implicit setting and doing somethig else bends them out of shape.JDsivrajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674833512849495283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-81836411841031458392015-05-20T10:13:41.209-04:002015-05-20T10:13:41.209-04:00Thing is the way. White Star and other OSR games a...Thing is the way. White Star and other OSR games are structgured it is very possible to just do it your way in supplements or an advanced game.<br /><br />I like white star becasue it provides an identifiable framework with familair rules to add on to. It's as easy as pie to shift from the quasi star wars vibe by dumping Star Knightd as a PC.<br />as you can easily grab classes from other games and add them to a campaign.<br /><br />There are tighter OSR compatible games out there but in being tighter they are tied closer to their implicit setting and doing somethig else bends them out of shape.JDsivrajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674833512849495283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-90625424070591533462015-05-20T09:53:49.242-04:002015-05-20T09:53:49.242-04:00Hm. I'm seeing just as much the possibility of...Hm. I'm seeing just as much the possibility of "sour grapes" from JB's post as I am of "You're pissing on my favorite new Wheaties" here. In all honesty. I think his criticism of the new game is fair from his point of view., and I wish it was something I saw more of in the echo-chamber. That was one thing that I liked about some of the older blogs, and even something I've liked about your Kickstarter reviews - calling it for what it is. Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-39329583498938326252015-05-19T22:50:30.941-04:002015-05-19T22:50:30.941-04:00I get the impression that most of the "bitter...I get the impression that most of the "bitterness" is probably at the life circumstances that have led him not to be involved in indy game publishing the way he would like to be.Kevin S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06076147424768269913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-3026262858761306282015-05-19T21:53:01.196-04:002015-05-19T21:53:01.196-04:00That is exactly what happened when my wife and I r...That is exactly what happened when my wife and I revealed the Game Tavern. 99% of the community gave us the thumbs up but there is always that 1% that feels the need to talk out of their third point of contact.<br /><br />Grand DMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09300718024070553749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-16594885784037898812015-05-19T21:32:32.833-04:002015-05-19T21:32:32.833-04:00I was going to start a blog and make a post like t...I was going to start a blog and make a post like this one a few years ago, only mine would have been better than yours. Never got around to it but you stole my idea. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07508110598542072738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-813059246179254802015-05-19T21:17:37.633-04:002015-05-19T21:17:37.633-04:00It's interesting, because if one were to edit ...It's interesting, because if one were to edit out all his self-referential baloney, some of his critique is quite valid.<br /><br />It's an otherwise insightful review ruined by his passive-aggressive sour grapes (which is clearly him kicking himself for not being out there first).Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-12083172112642346692015-05-19T21:00:22.516-04:002015-05-19T21:00:22.516-04:00Sales. Revenue. Product/Brand Retention. All trum...Sales. Revenue. Product/Brand Retention. All trump a good idea. <br /><br />Trademarks and copyrights help, too. <br /><br />HuckSawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13381444935904172318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-42822568106485724682015-05-19T20:57:17.919-04:002015-05-19T20:57:17.919-04:00Sales. Revenue. Product/Brand Retention. All trum...Sales. Revenue. Product/Brand Retention. All trump a good idea. <br /><br />Trademarks and copyrights help, too. <br /><br />HuckSawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13381444935904172318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-4310025170081914572015-05-19T18:48:10.383-04:002015-05-19T18:48:10.383-04:00Spoken like a true poet!Spoken like a true poet!Dyvershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06032957275132817602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-24322576457486428942015-05-19T10:50:27.614-04:002015-05-19T10:50:27.614-04:00I had a dream. Then reality crushed my dream. My d...I had a dream. Then reality crushed my dream. My dream was better than reality. Therefore, reality sucks. I wish I lived in my dream.Matthew Schmeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11348372645986806502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-41137425459715933932015-05-19T10:45:49.565-04:002015-05-19T10:45:49.565-04:00"Could have" always loses to "Did.&..."Could have" always loses to "Did." It's as simple as that.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-19173931943878589202015-05-19T09:55:10.374-04:002015-05-19T09:55:10.374-04:00Bearing in mind that although my initials are JB I...Bearing in mind that although my initials are JB I'm *not* the JB who was the apparent inspiration for this post. :-)<br /><br />I also had the same sort of idea for Adventures Dark and Deep. Do a supplement with new sci-fi classes and races and equipment and such, and use the basic ADD rules. But I am more than happy to say in my case it wasn't that mine was so much better but I decided to not publish anyway, but in my case it was because I just never got off my ass and finished it, and James had the same idea (before or after I did, it doesn't make a lick of difference) and got the job done in a really great way, and is getting a great response. So I'm taking the stuff I did write, and am going to riff of what he did, and make something new.<br /><br />So I'll gladly compare myself to James, not in my would-have-been game against his got-it-done game, but in my work habits against his, and I come up wanting. :-)Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-64535870590443639212015-05-19T09:52:51.910-04:002015-05-19T09:52:51.910-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-88337784588004620982015-05-19T09:17:00.278-04:002015-05-19T09:17:00.278-04:00After reading the post from JB I'm with Tenkar...After reading the post from JB I'm with Tenkar on this one. It does come off a bit like a "This thing I never released was way better than this one that came out and is eerily similar to the thing I never released so he must have being all up in my head stealing my notes" vibe.Dyvershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06032957275132817602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-10946388365724395452015-05-19T08:01:51.153-04:002015-05-19T08:01:51.153-04:00His criticism and critique would have come off bet...His criticism and critique would have come off better without spending most of his post showing how he did the same but better but never released it. <br /><br />JBs expo critique is valid (but it's the same problem i've had since I started gaming 35 years ago) But it gets lost in the noise of "I did the same but better ."<br /><br />And really. Comparing production value of a self publisher to FFG? How is that even a thing? Should we compare JBs self published releases to WotC or Paizo?Tenkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-47897892205171501902015-05-19T07:51:16.108-04:002015-05-19T07:51:16.108-04:00They're pricks, and that's the reason why ...They're pricks, and that's the reason why they should never be re-invited. That sort of ingratitude and self-importance can get the hell on up out of my house. Dyvershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06032957275132817602noreply@blogger.com