tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post1316228692523689918..comments2024-03-17T22:08:39.591-04:00Comments on Tenkar's Tavern: Frank Mentzer Follows Up With The TavernkeeperTenkarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comBlogger119125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-82029271420274557752017-09-17T13:28:48.601-04:002017-09-17T13:28:48.601-04:00Speaking purely for myself, the OSR has been a ver...Speaking purely for myself, the OSR has been a very good market segment to me. In the past two years, I've had gross sales of about a half million dollars worth of Sine Nomine books. That's not mansion money on the post-tax net, but it is an extremely comfortable location-independent living for a single creator.<br /><br />And that, I think, is the key. The OSR as a market segment can absolutely provide a comfortable living to more creators than it does now, but those creators have to be able to take a project from inception to print with minimal outside involvement. My per-book profits are huge compared to the royalties I'd get from a publisher. They have to be, because in the last year I've sold 12,000 copies of one title or another, and if I were with a conventional fiction publisher they'd burn my rolodex card if I moved less than 20,000 on one title in a year. I can make a very comfortable living on 12,000 copies sold, but that living gets a whole lot less comfortable if I have to pay authors and layout designers on every product I issue.<br /><br />And by the same token, those creators have to _produce_. One swallow does not make a summer and one hit product does not make a living. They have to be able to hit their project deadlines and constantly create new, compelling products that draw new buyers and keep existing fans coming back for more. They can move tremendous amounts of back catalog this way, but only if they _have_ a back catalog. You know what a hit OSR product means? It means the customers are willing to see what else you've got.Sine Nominehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18335794366582322514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-80308230755330893562017-09-15T13:23:42.613-04:002017-09-15T13:23:42.613-04:00Having never given Paizo or WotC any of my money f...Having never given Paizo or WotC any of my money for tabletop RPG stuff, I know better than to expect a medal. It warms my heart to see so many independent creators making so many wonderful alternatives to Pathfinder or 5E. We sure never had THIS many options when I was that kid who first became aware of 1E AD&D in 1978.Timothyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01810738991361680801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-20598032237464398872017-09-15T08:00:29.762-04:002017-09-15T08:00:29.762-04:00Very insightful, thank you. :)Very insightful, thank you. :)DerKastellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108771318010984386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-8075097472686809822017-09-15T07:49:46.469-04:002017-09-15T07:49:46.469-04:00I would not say OSR, I would say simply nostalgic....I would not say OSR, I would say simply nostalgic. Rehashing old stuff has a big history at the Wizards since 3e. Ravenloft rehash, Greyhawk rehash, White Plume mountain rehash... this clearly predates the OSR.<br /><br />I think the OSR overestimates itself in impact. What might really drive sales is an aging population of gamers. And they like nostalgia. That doesn't make them part of the OSR. Maybe they can be reached as a market, but WotC clearly seems to know they exist and caters to them now. (Especially after 4e.)DerKastellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108771318010984386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-22269736640796920422017-09-15T07:43:46.871-04:002017-09-15T07:43:46.871-04:00@Will Arnold "Please delineate "most maj...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />@Will Arnold "Please delineate "most major Publishers". Name three, why you named those three, and provide independently verifiable data points that back it. Otherwise, methinks you doth protest too much."<br /><br />I think this is just a rhetoric trick. Very little is known about actual numbers, and I bet you know that unless you walked into the topic of "actual accurate numbers in the hobby gaming industry" just yesterday.<br /><br />Three major publishers are easily picked:<br />* Wizards of the Coast<br />* Paizo<br />* Fantasy Flight Games<br /><br />If you walk into almost any small to medium game store you will see their products. Some Star Wars. Some 5e D&D. Some Pathfinder. And there are plenty of stores where you will find only that or 90% that.<br /><br />You can ignore this, but it does not make you more right. Everybody knows who the big ones are. You don't need to quote exact numbers to know that these three make the top tier, Chaosium or Monte Cook and a few others live somewhere in 2nd tier, and most everyone else you can find in a store is 3rd tier.<br /><br />But if you want to shut down discussion, you can of course insist. It remains a cheap rhetorical trick, nevertheless. Guess who doth protest too much?DerKastellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108771318010984386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-10259290651841493452017-09-15T07:34:13.556-04:002017-09-15T07:34:13.556-04:00Comparing the "biggest OSR Kickstarter" ...Comparing the "biggest OSR Kickstarter" to "the biggest 5e KS" is a very moot exercise.<br /><br />DCC exists because of this KS. If fans had not contributed, it might not have happened in the way it did. You fund what you want to see live. That's a hobbyist kind of network thing with years of upfront investment in terms of time and hype.<br /><br />5e had 160,000 (IIRC) people sign up for the D&D Next playtest alone. Pathfinder sold 75,000 Humble Bundles recently. These games have as many players or people owning the books as OSR KS have made in total dollars.<br /><br />No 5e official product has been financed through KS. And if WotC did that, I wonder how high the number would go. But until that happens: apples and pears and oranges.<br /><br />I'm very happy with DCC's success and I am a Goodman Games' licensee. There's a lot more behind that success than you could simply slap "OSR" on it and claim it for the wider OSR scene.<br /><br />I like the OSR but as most everyone says, it's a niche in a niche in a largely irrelevant hobby.DerKastellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108771318010984386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-54413042589093201522017-09-14T06:08:19.204-04:002017-09-14T06:08:19.204-04:00Does anyone know where to find OBS sales or an app...Does anyone know where to find OBS sales or an approximation? Now, I'm really interested in the market dynamics. Even if the OBS revenue is as much as the FLGS/KS money this is still not really a market. At those numbers the entire RPG industry could sustain maybe 150-175 people at the US median income level. Talk about a small pond...Donegalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02673123261192648589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-8565019009652784302017-09-14T05:46:34.738-04:002017-09-14T05:46:34.738-04:00I dump a lot of money on OSR products. I think the...I dump a lot of money on OSR products. I think the challenge here is as others point out, is that this is a niche to the power of about 10. However, quality stands out, i have paid big money for small books because I want to reward the creators vision and balls to give it a whirl, not to mention the sheer old school goodness is just amazing, really creative imaginative, practical products. Controversy and bagging people in this small space is so counter-productive it pains me....Mike Tangohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18299442931489498293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-65824085980455407682017-09-13T21:21:01.911-04:002017-09-13T21:21:01.911-04:00Well said.Well said.Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-49365044331944430962017-09-13T20:45:49.758-04:002017-09-13T20:45:49.758-04:00I think Pete has it for much of the self-creating ...I think Pete has it for much of the self-creating crowd: play what you like, write what you play, once you've got the wherewithal to turn that into product, you can do it in one system or many. If you do it well, it's a nice sideline. If you get lucky or are Just That Good and lightning strikes, you get to write what you play what you like as a job.Douglas Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292678529266123501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-33513197236839284802017-09-13T17:47:17.758-04:002017-09-13T17:47:17.758-04:00They did revise their data.
Both this fact (the re...They did revise their data.<br />Both this fact (the revision) and the fact they started factoring KS in are stated in the link you provided :)Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-20420097791378850562017-09-13T17:38:47.301-04:002017-09-13T17:38:47.301-04:00I started publishing Labyrinth Lord adventures bec...I started publishing Labyrinth Lord adventures because I was familiar with the nuances of the system and we were playing regularly. It was a logical step. I never really considered the market aspects. <br /><br />My group has become interested in 5e. We are going to be playing it. I strongly suspect this will lead me to publish adventures for it. I'll probably start with a conversion of one of my existing adventures (most likely the Shrine of St. Aleena). It will be interesting to see what the difference in sales will be. petespahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01003977036485078376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-17985164400668946892017-09-13T17:27:45.241-04:002017-09-13T17:27:45.241-04:00This may be a controversial comment, but I'm l...This may be a controversial comment, but I'm looking forward to a new BECMI-compatible release from Frank Mentzer. :)Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-10195038401714229682017-09-13T17:08:02.037-04:002017-09-13T17:08:02.037-04:00I dug into it as well; they added the KS figures i...I dug into it as well; they added the KS figures in 2016 or thereabouts, and the last time I really looked into this was before that. So thus my confusion: they went out and added the KS data, which may be why 2016 was such a jump. Not sure if they revised their old data upwards; that doesn't really matter however. Douglas Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292678529266123501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-14788574506502132412017-09-13T16:47:36.847-04:002017-09-13T16:47:36.847-04:00Yeah, I've seen your stuff, Alex. I think I b...Yeah, I've seen your stuff, Alex. I think I bought your first foray into old-school.Grumpy Old Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11087904102183244773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-20670220977750565282017-09-13T15:07:19.773-04:002017-09-13T15:07:19.773-04:00Appreciate the compliments on my work.
In respons...Appreciate the compliments on my work.<br /><br />In response, what you want to do and what you are doing is great. Encouraging and helping the OSR community always needs more advocates. <br /><br />What a lot of people struggle with is understanding the cultural impact of the low barrier to publication and pervasive use of open content. In a nutshell freedom is messy. With more people being able to participate you will have both assholes and angels. <br /><br />In addition the combination means that there are more options for who a person can distribute their material. There are people who are content and able to make a profit at releasing one or two works a year. There are people who release material one or twice in the past decade. And of course three are those are a machine at releasing material.<br /><br />Before this the only option at the professional level is to invest considerable capital into print runs. Granted it wasn't that hard as many were able to accomplish this. But for somebody who has an idea and has only his hobby time to spare it was a big barrier. That no longer the case.<br /><br />To me the current situation is exactly what I would expect when there no serious impediment to releasing one's work for a favorite edition of classic D&D. A hard working few that operate no different than the rest of the industry, with the vast majority trailing down to the guy who has released only one OSR product.<br /><br />And that is silver lining in all this. The OSR has grown considerably so it far easier today to get away from assholes and find the angels that are willing to help. <br /><br />The only thing I caution people about projects like yours, that it is highly unlikely that anything will change the fundamental nature of the OSR. As many people as you will be able to help into wider distribution or increase awareness about there be a dozen more who start to use Lulu, OBS, PoD and PDFs.<br /><br />What good about your effort is that offers a needed option and is one more voice at letting people know about what is available. And that always a good thing in my book. <br /><br /><br />Finally I will say the OSR started out as a black swan event, so I will gladly be proven wrong by you or anybody else who figure the right combination to extend the reach of the OSR (and other open content RPGs like 3PP 5e) into the realm of FLGS, and other traditional publishing venues.<br />Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-26173045176326426052017-09-13T15:01:56.807-04:002017-09-13T15:01:56.807-04:00May I humbly suggest...
http://www.fireborngames....May I humbly suggest...<br /><br />http://www.fireborngames.com/Alex Karaczunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00322145153741813140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-65296824312480767212017-09-13T14:47:55.473-04:002017-09-13T14:47:55.473-04:00As a fan of the OSR, I love to see see OSR inspire...As a fan of the OSR, I love to see see OSR inspired products. Stars without Number, Whitestar, Jeff Talanian's Hyperboria, and of course Raggi's LofFP. These are all games I own and love. I am, however, going to side with Frank. Even though the games I mentioned have a market, it is a VERY small piece of the pie. The die-hard OSRers do focus on a certain rule set and a specific time in game history. Nothing wrong with that, however there is no uniqueness to most products. How many times can you repackage Holmes, BX, Red Box as a different game? How many OSR products will I toss money at, before I realize I just bought another clone of OD&D or BX. James Raggi has an OSR product, but his supplements are a totally different vibe, and while people cringe at the work of Zac S, it adds something new. James Sphan has an OSR game that goes off into a different direction with the common rules, and Kevin Crawford combined two OSR engines to create something pretty awe inspiring. In order for a market to thrive, there needs to be diversity, there needs to be a break in the mold. The OSR is a wonderful thing, I just feel it has become bloated with people who jump on board with a "I'm doing this because it's cool" attitude and not looking at it as a design and philosophical media.<br /><br />I hope that came out right, I don't mean to be negative or mean. James C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14703699913918871901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-34866622162348373262017-09-13T14:36:22.662-04:002017-09-13T14:36:22.662-04:00"They have CHOSEN to be irrelevant to the cur..."They have CHOSEN to be irrelevant to the current market."<br /><br />And some think this is a negative?<br /><br />These splendid Creators managed to avoid corporate domination and mass-market bowdlerization (applause to Raggi) and you really think that's BAD? I said the exact opposite. (Read all of the o.p., not just the last line.)<br /><br />These Creators made it, and Independently! But they need MORE support from Us (the real Hobby, not the suits & corps).<br /><br />I say again, ignore (or scorn) those who are intolerant and trolling us with their sacramental sentiments about "One True Game" and Why Your Game Sucks. (You have opinions, great. So stop dissing others when they express theirs. Learn tact.)<br /><br />Go ahead, rag on me or words or websites. We all need to vent.<br />But after you're done,<br />Support the WHOLE hobby, not just your back yard.<br />Frank Mentzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01175370701287858254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-67451020736980916782017-09-13T14:28:43.464-04:002017-09-13T14:28:43.464-04:00I for one am well aware of the issue. Which is why...I for one am well aware of the issue. Which is why when advising anybody trying to make a go at publishing their material that the OSR helps but ultimately not a substitute for everything a personal has to do for other RPGs in the industry. You have to get out there at the convention, spread the word, work towards being able to afford print runs, find out what it takes for distribution and above all do this with a plan thought out beforehand.<br /><br />However there are some FLGS with OSR material. For example in Cleveland Ohio there is Weird Realms which has a large rack full of OSR offerings. Several OSR publisher have products in distribution. But most of the activity in the OSR is handled as Frank puts through OBS, Lulu, PoD, and PDF.<br /><br />Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-48337578627719885062017-09-13T14:24:56.091-04:002017-09-13T14:24:56.091-04:00Nat 20 is right. I'm a regular at the Alehous...Nat 20 is right. I'm a regular at the Alehouse, and most of us there are AD&D/OD&D players not overly interest in the DIY OSR. But a surprising number also play 5e, played 4e, and I personally ran a 3e campaign for 4+ years. We're happy with AD&D/OD&D, but with OSRIC, we're able to get new stuff for the old games, such as the adventures from XRP, which drop right AD&D game with virtually no changes (actually, I can't think of any, but there might be something that is escaping me.) But even at that, some of the guys there have written stuff the has shown up in the DIY/Maker/Punk OSR, such as Petty Gods. I'm also probably the exception to the rule of the Alehouse, because I have bought a lot of OSR stuff. 1,390 products in my library at RPGNow. A lot of that is free/pwyw, and TSR AD&D/OD&D/BX stuff, but I've supported a lot of OSR authors over the years, too. I've also support AS&SH, Operation Unfathomable, and sever other OSR kickstarters. <br /><br />But in the end, I do agree that the market is irrelevant. Not just the OSR segment, the whole RPG market is laughably tiny and irrelevant, and the OSR is a small sliver of that. We bitching about salad croutons vs. bread crumbs here.Grumpy Old Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11087904102183244773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-63831304313713824642017-09-13T13:59:05.364-04:002017-09-13T13:59:05.364-04:00This discussion has become, yet again, another ech...This discussion has become, yet again, another echo chamber of OSR supporters. I fully support the OSR, both in spirit and monetarily, but to pretend that it has a significant impact to the RPG market at large is suspect.<br /><br />"At my FLGS!" anecdotes have nothing to do with reality. Once you get off the internet and messageboards and actually go outside, most gamers have never heard of "OSR" games. It's either D&D or Pathfinder, maybe a peripheral Mongoose release. That's it. To think otherwise is just a waste of time. Going to small conventions with the same people who you see at other small conventions has nothing to do with Gencon and/or Origins.<br /><br />The OSR-aware can pretty much be numbered in the thousands, vs. D&D aware in the millions. Why do people posting here and other places pretend that's not the case?Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06596247660364673313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-13250139921073219972017-09-13T13:52:42.409-04:002017-09-13T13:52:42.409-04:00Heya Rob. Lots of great offerings over the years, ...Heya Rob. Lots of great offerings over the years, wtg.<br />The existing economics of the field provide a bare subsistence for Creators like you (usually with Day Jobs). It works, sorta. I want to improve comms, offer better (free) PR, and compile a better overview of the tremendous resources that lurk out there. I'm not rich, so to do that I have to aim broader to conjure up the ability. I'm not 'abandoning' the OSR with Empyrea, I hope to use this as a welcoming platform and info distribution point to try to enhance the visibility of this great but disorganized subgroup. And in the process, when some try to oppose unity and Community with "Your Game Sucks, 1974 is best" (or whichever intolerant attitude is espoused, thereby denigrating the opinions of others) -- then as a proud rank 'n' file member of Hobby Gaming, I object. I object Strongly. Stop this self-centered destructive non-cooperative attitude and learn to live Together.<br />Frank Mentzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01175370701287858254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-41724404448263467422017-09-13T13:14:06.178-04:002017-09-13T13:14:06.178-04:00I will never argue against anybody who trying to h...I will never argue against anybody who trying to help others get their material in wider distribution. But are you making the point that as it stands the OSR is not viable with PoD, PDF, Lulu and OBS? I want to be sure I reading your response right.<br /><br />Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-25075032238438971022017-09-13T11:45:35.446-04:002017-09-13T11:45:35.446-04:00It says it does - it also says, honestly, that the...It says it does - it also says, honestly, that the numbers are not data, but "projections" (that is, icv2 hypothesis :) )Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.com