tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post9168251039779141665..comments2024-03-27T20:09:00.283-04:00Comments on Tenkar's Tavern: Kevin Crawford responded to Frank Mentzer's Commentary on the Viability of the OSR MarketTenkarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-89275050651899903872017-09-19T16:47:00.545-04:002017-09-19T16:47:00.545-04:00my opinion is that the OSR is fickle and creates a...my opinion is that the OSR is fickle and creates a single "super star" for the other 20 creators it kicks to the curb, refuses, to review, and generally ignores. <br /><br />I can understand why some would grow to hate it ... Mentzer was not one of the those I figured would have a negative opinion. Desahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04406519864537714066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-50991290025655345492017-09-18T22:37:16.988-04:002017-09-18T22:37:16.988-04:00I'm... Kinda picturing RPG consumers scooping ...I'm... Kinda picturing RPG consumers scooping up huge amounts of RPG supplements like krill.<br /><br />That kinda makes me happy.JetstreamGWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12481506416130748485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-65582968893872233622017-09-18T11:39:45.328-04:002017-09-18T11:39:45.328-04:00Art history teaches us that "fringe movements...Art history teaches us that "fringe movements" never become mainstream, they just get absorbed by the mainstream, after all...Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-28850757051193246192017-09-18T11:37:46.215-04:002017-09-18T11:37:46.215-04:00Well, it's no secret that a sizeable part of t...Well, it's no secret that a sizeable part of the failure of 4th edition was due to its departure to the usual D&D structure (so much that it can be said 4E is the "less D&D" edition). So, a couple of steps back were due.<br />As for the PHB selling more that DMG and MM - well that's quite normal, it happens in every edition. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the PHB for 3.x sold far more than both DMG and MM together. Simply put, everybody needs the PHB, while only one person out of 4 (and that includes both DMs and curious players) needs the other books.Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-8617209879802949322017-09-18T11:25:17.554-04:002017-09-18T11:25:17.554-04:00"Is that 'relevance'? I guess that de..."Is that 'relevance'? I guess that depends on your definition of relevance. It meets mine. Clearly there has been an impact on the whole. I think the quote that got all this going was from FM was "Culturally the OSR is unique and priceless, and I applaud it. But they have chosen to be irrelevant to the current market.""<br /><br />Perhaps it's because what a lot of folks strove for in the 'early' years of the 'OSR' was simply to have new material, new ideas, new energy. That was achieved by 2009/2010. <br /><br />With 5e incorporating lessons from our niche of a niche, I can see why some might think we're moving back to irrelevance, in terms of market influence. We've already influenced the top dog, where to go, aside from continuing to be a boutique influence and interest? It's not by choice, but simply by time and culture moving away from what appeals to those of us who stay in this niche.<br /><br />I think FM's words are a little bombastic, geared towards controversy (and any news/attention is good news/attention, I suppose) but yes, there could be a kernel of truth there. Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-10928655988381577662017-09-18T11:07:47.464-04:002017-09-18T11:07:47.464-04:00I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's ...I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's important to remember that when the PHB was published, WotC was trying to regain marketshare with a new edition rather than avoid losing established marketshare. I mean, you don't have to ask that question in the hypothetical, neither of them is credited in the MM or the DMG, and I'd be completely unsurprised to learn that the PHB outsold both. However, I'd suspect that drop has to do with other factors.<br /><br />I think their Pundit and Zak being credited by name is less indicative of the relevancy of the OSR than the fact that WotC felt a need to account for the preferences of OSR customers in the design of 5e.Caleb Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858260507123306044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-60804389464502458032017-09-18T10:38:32.715-04:002017-09-18T10:38:32.715-04:00...and this advice is gold....and this advice is gold.Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-43092059871213495152017-09-18T10:21:25.427-04:002017-09-18T10:21:25.427-04:00In truth, I _still_ give away free stuff to build ...In truth, I _still_ give away free stuff to build brand recognition. But the point is to give away free stuff in a way that actually makes you money. Sine Nomine has never had a year in the red- it's always operated at a profit, even if that profit was only eight thousand in its first year. The critical factor in that was ensuring that there was always some way for a pleased reader to give me money. Sure, you could get SWN free, but there was also a POD print version waiting there to throw money at, and a growing stack of supplements to buy in PDF and POD formats if the initial core entry point suited the reader.<br /><br />Way too many OSR authors make it hard to pay them. The PDF needs to have a POD, they need to be released at the same time, and there needs to be enough of a back catalog that a satisfied whale can go in and scoop up a hundred bucks of stuff with a few clicks if they like your free entry product enough.Sine Nominehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18335794366582322514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-43050066416654570372017-09-18T10:08:19.475-04:002017-09-18T10:08:19.475-04:00(also... Food better than cars. Any day :P )(also... Food better than cars. Any day :P )Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-48216642863308354902017-09-18T10:07:37.968-04:002017-09-18T10:07:37.968-04:00Ask yourself this:
"RPGPundit and Zak S. are ...Ask yourself this:<br />"RPGPundit and Zak S. are credited for consultation in the PHB. What if they weren't? Would 5E lose market?"<br />I think the answer's no - although I am sure that, thanks to their names, 5E *shifted* a fraction of its market (don't forget that there's people out there who actively dislike those two, so they probably DIDN'T buy the PHB because of their names...)Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-24084808917848759642017-09-18T10:03:53.024-04:002017-09-18T10:03:53.024-04:00Analogies have their limits :)
(but Uber doesn'...Analogies have their limits :)<br />(but Uber doesn't work, as an analogy, as it is a big, centralized company, not a scattering of independent drivers)Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-74265411373887664202017-09-18T09:27:26.417-04:002017-09-18T09:27:26.417-04:00But I suppose the OSR is not quite "uber"...But I suppose the OSR is not quite "uber".. yet anyway! :)Donegalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02673123261192648589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-59267761481800409512017-09-18T09:25:47.176-04:002017-09-18T09:25:47.176-04:00That is a decent analogy except the RPG industry w...That is a decent analogy except the RPG industry was never McDonald's. It was maybe, at one time, the local family restaurant in town. Those places might not go out of business because of the food trucks but they are going to lose some money for sure. They might not even notice it at first because those customers are still going to eat at both, much like many gamers buy both OSR and 'mainstream' games. They are also likely to be influenced by their customers new demand for farm-to-table and organic sourcing, etc., and so they will change up to meet that demand. Kind of like 5e clearly changed the direction of D&D as a result of the OSR influence.<br />Is that 'relevance'? I guess that depends on your definition of relevance. It meets mine. Clearly there has been an impact on the whole. I think the quote that got all this going was from FM was "Culturally the OSR is unique and priceless, and I applaud it. But they have chosen to be irrelevant to the current market."Donegalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02673123261192648589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-86756857824315365792017-09-18T08:24:28.425-04:002017-09-18T08:24:28.425-04:00That's a very good analogy. I'm just not ...That's a very good analogy. I'm just not sure that food trucks actually are irrelevant to corporate chains. RPGPundit and Zak S. are credited for consultation in the PHB; I don't think the OSR is going to drive WotC in bankruptcy, but that's not irrelevance.<br /><br />Then again, I'm willing to buy PF and 5e products, but as a food service professional I avoid MacDonald's etc. like the plague, so maybe I'm just overworking the metaphor.Caleb Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858260507123306044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-33554550208269195412017-09-18T06:12:34.293-04:002017-09-18T06:12:34.293-04:00I stand by my food truck example: artisans serving...I stand by my food truck example: artisans serving handmade food to a selected, local audience who prefers not to eat at Mac's. And yes, using a different method of distribution.<br />Also, spices on demand :)Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-12127012685592437972017-09-18T06:07:00.856-04:002017-09-18T06:07:00.856-04:00Hmm. Is the OSR the "Uber" of the RPG i...Hmm. Is the OSR the "Uber" of the RPG industry? Using new technologies (on demand printing, digital distribution, layout software usable by amateurs, VTT even) to make the old models of publishing obsolete and non-profitable?<br />Donegalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02673123261192648589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-71016341890212129822017-09-18T05:55:02.046-04:002017-09-18T05:55:02.046-04:00The point (and it seems clear to me, but maybe bec...The point (and it seems clear to me, but maybe because I have a peculiar POV) is not if OSR is viable or if it isn't: it is.<br />The same way food trucks are viable, still they are irrelevant to McDonald's, Burger King, Nando's and all the rest of the market.Wild Boar Gameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15331956893392526045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-5702626534196775482017-09-18T03:28:55.521-04:002017-09-18T03:28:55.521-04:00DerKastellan: "Makes me wonder which RPG is C...DerKastellan: <i>"Makes me wonder which RPG is Chinese - real lots of players but "less recognized" and hard to get into from the outside..."</i><br /><br /><i>Traveller</i>, perhaps? It has its own taxonomy of languages, too, ranging from Classic Traveller - which has its own set of variants, such as the 77 and 81 editions - through the various editions (with a little side trip to Traveller: The New Era) up to Mongoose Traveller (with its own first and second editions) and Traveller5.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-58759105749137030362017-09-18T03:22:23.455-04:002017-09-18T03:22:23.455-04:00PS - I once interviewed Crawford... I think it was...PS - I once interviewed Crawford... I think it was before doing his Godbound KS... and he also said that he had to build his market by first giving away free stuff for years to build brand recognition... So, it took years of "affording to lose" to actually win the needed marketshare.DerKastellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108771318010984386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-43438692040671211862017-09-18T02:54:26.536-04:002017-09-18T02:54:26.536-04:00His stuff is, without doubt, absolutely brillant. ...His stuff is, without doubt, absolutely brillant. Not so keen on scifi, but Scarlet Heroes and Silent Legions are personal favorites.DerKastellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108771318010984386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-48294542808329693262017-09-18T02:52:32.037-04:002017-09-18T02:52:32.037-04:00I think he raised a valid argument, but calling so...I think he raised a valid argument, but calling somebody's opinion "pretty dumb" because it does not align with your preconceived notions is... questionable.<br /><br />No, let's all pretend the OSR market is viable because a person like Kevin Crawford who is - besides art - a one person publishing machine of exceptional talents makes money of it. That's the extreme case. Every publisher who actually hires people like Goodman Games has at least one foot in either 5e or Pathfinder or both.<br /><br />So, in other words: The OSR is great... if you don't mind doing everything yourself... or don't mind selling to more popular markets to make sure you actually hit a profit.<br /><br />And that means: Mentzer has a point. Regardless of the DF stuff.DerKastellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108771318010984386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-91437803736365174902017-09-18T02:32:24.828-04:002017-09-18T02:32:24.828-04:00Well, "hit dice" and "AC" are ...Well, "hit dice" and "AC" are only "universal" if all you speak is D&D. That's admittedly the English language of the RPG market, but it's far from even being _that_ universal, if anything. <br /><br />While in that particular "language" you get the ascending or descending AC sub-arguments, in other languages the respective sentence does not even translate. A certain amount of RPGs like AGE may be so similar that they can be classified as another Germanic language (as English is) but you don't automatically know AGE because you know D&D. Same for Monte Cook's cipher.<br /><br />Other large language trees are for example Basic Role-Playing/D100/OpenQuest/Legend/Call of Cthulhu/RuneQuest/Mithras. That would be the RPG equivalent of Spanish... I guess this analogy devolves quickly, though.<br /><br />Makes me wonder which RPG is Chinese - real lots of players but "less recognized" and hard to get into from the outside...DerKastellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108771318010984386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-63883685808737272822017-09-18T02:24:20.252-04:002017-09-18T02:24:20.252-04:00Agreed; I am not buying this hacking business, eit...Agreed; I am not buying this hacking business, either.Edgewisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01975570824983584330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-87608266885277761932017-09-18T00:10:38.952-04:002017-09-18T00:10:38.952-04:00I missed the Stars without Number kick starter bec...I missed the Stars without Number kick starter because I had too many irons in the fire.I know I will be buying it when it comes out because his stuff is that good.The Inn On Palmer ST.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11264207446052295700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-34245046612885904822017-09-17T22:44:08.253-04:002017-09-17T22:44:08.253-04:00There's more than one person proving the viabi...There's more than one person proving the viability of the OSR every day, but if there was only one person doing it, it'd be Kevin. One thing I find very telling about being viable in the OSR is his idea that people buy his products for sandbox content rather than a specific rules system. I think Franks freakout (I'm going to have make a real effort not to call it The Frankout from now on) was an overreaction to a lackluster response to yet another campaign setting when he was expecting the entire OSR to sit up and cheer Gygax's endorsement. <br /><br />I bought SWN in dead tree because I'd gotten so much use from the free pdf and, though I didn't back Kevin's latest kickstarter, I am planning on buying the book once it's published. My point is, there's more to market viability than successful kickstarters. Not that anyone was arguing that point.Caleb Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858260507123306044noreply@blogger.com