tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post8854834978165035154..comments2024-03-27T20:09:00.283-04:00Comments on Tenkar's Tavern: And I Say Unto Thee - Dwimmermount, What Have We Wrought? (Spare 2k Coppers Gov-nuh?)Tenkarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-15684243639013296222014-02-13T07:28:28.924-05:002014-02-13T07:28:28.924-05:00"Why would the Terrim keep the Sleeping God o..."Why would the Terrim keep the Sleeping God on hand as a deterrent weapon of mass destruction if its activation is controlled by the Great Machine, which is in the hands of their enemies? "<br /><br />That seems like a problem.<br /><br />"- Why would the Lawful-aligned Prison which has ensnared Turms Termax be under the control of the Chaotic Sleeping God? "<br /><br />Who honestly gives a shit? If the Sleeping God is interesting, a simple handwave will suffice.<br /><br />"If Gods such as Typhon are Lawful, why would they create the Eld if doing so would represent a turning away from Law? If they aren't Lawful, what is their relationship to Law and why do they grant Lawful spells?"<br /><br />Seriously, why is this important? It doesn't matter! Dwimmermount gods are lawful because they champion order and civilization. The Eld are chaotic because they're fond of devil-magic and have let their civilization degenerate into Melnibonean ruin. This is a non-problem.<br /><br />"If the Secrets of the City of the Ancients are so amazing, why would a 9HD Dwimmerdragon have stopped the Eld, Thulians, and Termaxians from invading?"<br /><br />Again, does this really matter? I can't imagine that it does. Perhaps older protections existed that have now vanished and the players have no need or easy way of discovering what they were. Perhaps the dragon used to be much more powerful, but has grown old and weary (hence the reduced hit die). It isn't important, and can be explained away with a single sentence.<br /><br />All of this is not to say that internal consistency of a dungeon's backstory isn't important - a disjointed backstory can have very real effects on gameplay. However, these types of questions just don't seem like serious issues to me - surely each can be resolved quite quickly. Where ambiguity arises, simply provide a solution, then a note that this solution is only one of many possible solutions. Type 2 DMs can run it as written, Type 1s do as they please, and everyone is made aware that when dealing with the gods or the ancient past, absolute certainty is uncommon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-76940174517991103712014-02-10T14:35:21.829-05:002014-02-10T14:35:21.829-05:00Comment removed after reading the rest of the comm...Comment removed after reading the rest of the comment thread.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17204485991779107198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-75439501864531903322014-02-10T14:31:00.898-05:002014-02-10T14:31:00.898-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17204485991779107198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-15167249788456590372014-02-08T14:09:15.766-05:002014-02-08T14:09:15.766-05:00http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?716503-OSR-Pee...http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?716503-OSR-Peeps-DWIMMERMOUNT-Update<br /><br />I've started a thread on this topic over on RPGnet, if anyone is interested. It's sadly quiet, I don't know if there were actually a lot of backers other than me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07295234801918505918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-63634972689280308842014-02-07T19:20:45.928-05:002014-02-07T19:20:45.928-05:00This thread is like a perfect OSR snapshot taken b...This thread is like a perfect OSR snapshot taken by God. Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-84250631627553794182014-02-07T11:20:02.779-05:002014-02-07T11:20:02.779-05:00I, personally, would probably go with number 1. A...I, personally, would probably go with number 1. As you point out, it's a no-win situation and you're not going to please everybody, and DIY is just more Old School in my opinion. As for what I think YOU should do, of course you should do what you think is best. Even if I don't agree with it, it's still your call. As I said before, good luck.TheShadowKnowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11073693648569864707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-79511689505120444572014-02-07T04:08:21.241-05:002014-02-07T04:08:21.241-05:00Ok, I think we first have to define Plot. If Plot ...Ok, I think we first have to define Plot. If Plot is a Story that unfolds during the adventure and the PCs just play along, then Plot has nothing to do in OSR. If Plot is a backstory that explains why the Dungeon is how it is and why there are different factions (as it is done in ToEE), then Plot is nessary IMHO to create an environment that is different to the next dungeon.<br />If we take the latter definition of Plot, there are two of possible explanations why elements of the Plot are contradictionary.<br />First, the author referees on the fly and takes things as they come. His dungeon is a barebones work with the Plot being bits and pieces the referee can tie together on his own and create a working environment.<br />Or the auther creates a Plot where during different times and whose different factions all have different views on the reality of the environment. Even if A sees things different as B and in time 1 things are differnt than in time 2 the environment referee has a working environment he can use out of the box.<br />Now IMHO the more complex the Plot gets, the more you need a coherent working environmet of the second type. And from what I read of the Dwimmermount dokuments (I am a backer) JMal created a fairly complex Plot.<br />Otherwise why bother at all to create a Plot that is unusable without a lot of work on the referees side? I can do that on my own.<br /><br />But as always YMMV.<br /><br />KristianHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00232005660954059260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-8000930052132475962014-02-06T22:25:18.396-05:002014-02-06T22:25:18.396-05:00David Brawley: Who is to say what is going to be i...David Brawley: Who is to say what is going to be important at any particular table? We aren't talking about a Dragonlance module, where everything that is important is predetermined, and every outcome is also.<br /><br />Anyway, late for 2 or 3 years, not good enough forever.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-21386269274199097372014-02-06T20:41:46.876-05:002014-02-06T20:41:46.876-05:00@AM - maybe? However how important is it that the ...@AM - maybe? However how important is it that the story of a mad dwarf on level 1 and the Spawn on level 7 say the same thing in the grand scheme of the dungeon? At this point, I think you kind of have to presume that anyone who's looking for a nice complete megadungeon has MULTIPLE options that are already complete, published, and are still supported. What support is Dwimmermount going to have? The original author who got all of the backers to give him money is silent, Travis (bless his dice) passed it on to you and then there was silence for over a month from the one place I expect to get news about this first - the kickstarter itself. <br /><br />At this point I'm worried that perfect has become the enemy of good (and done). Dwimmermount is rapidly approaching 2 years overdue. David The Archmagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649391406526258069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-41614266511391710402014-02-06T20:35:09.311-05:002014-02-06T20:35:09.311-05:00For what it is worth, Alex, I appreciate the work ...For what it is worth, Alex, I appreciate the work you are doing and I hope it goes well. Thanks for stopping by!Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06463222600747737190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-6306258606064247662014-02-06T20:34:04.566-05:002014-02-06T20:34:04.566-05:00Greg: we are totally approaching this from differe...Greg: we are totally approaching this from different directions, I think. Mythology loves the rough edges, but this is not a mythological adventure. It is a dungeon crawl; not in the mythic underworld, but in a magic-enhanced fortress.<br /><br />Also, I have nothing invested in the original creator's specific vision; from my perspective he started this project, then handed it off to others. I have not seen anything he's done that's convinced me that his unique vision is worth loyalty even incomplete. He had a blog with interesting posts, but he left this thing unfinished. I want to see what Autarch will do with it; they've already brought in a lot of things I really like that were not in the original.<br /><br />I wanted Dwimmermount because it looked neat, not because of the person who started it. Of course, I was also suckered in by thinking there was a LOT more done, played, tested, and ready to go... So when I see Autarch reducing its sketchy nature and preparing a smoother project, that makes me happy.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06463222600747737190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-18163345690005938842014-02-06T20:28:40.491-05:002014-02-06T20:28:40.491-05:00Mwschmeer: Wouldn't it be better, though, for ...Mwschmeer: Wouldn't it be better, though, for the *dungeon itself* to explicitly say to the DM who has bought it, "No one knows if the Spawn of Arach-Nacha is lying, or if the Mad Dwarf truly is just mad" rather than say contradictory things and just assume the DM is supposed to figure out what he's supposed to do?<br /><br />Otherwise, it seems like you are saying you would prefer that the dungeon be written "esoterically," in the Platonic/Straussian meaning of that word: a text that purposefully is contradictory so that only the enlightened masters can decipher its true meaning. <br /><br />I know that there is a school of thought that views the Gygaxian DMG as a Talmud-like esoteric tome and thinks esotericism is therefore essential to old school play, so perhaps that IS your argument. ?<br /><br />Restitutor Orbishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05625086532637410710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-24685666670923183392014-02-06T20:14:28.652-05:002014-02-06T20:14:28.652-05:00I don't now and never have. It's a great m...I don't now and never have. It's a great module don't get me wrong, but really it's just a bunch of interesting rooms cobbled together. What sets that apart from say a tavern full of interesting rooms in the middle of a city? Or the numerous locations in the city itself. You can have adventures in the city just like you can have an adventure in the Tomb but the city itself is not an adventure.petespahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01003977036485078376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-14775244831561915572014-02-06T20:08:14.170-05:002014-02-06T20:08:14.170-05:00Thanks! It's a rowdy bar. I'm hoping I don...Thanks! It's a rowdy bar. I'm hoping I don't get beat up too bad and become another Dwimmermount casualty. My hit points are pretty low...Restitutor Orbishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05625086532637410710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-8084481265114496562014-02-06T19:51:09.567-05:002014-02-06T19:51:09.567-05:00Alex, I'd like to personally thank your for st...Alex, I'd like to personally thank your for stopping by and commenting. The Tavern can be a noisy and lively (to put it politely) place and I really appreciate you addressing the concerns raised by the readers / commenters / heavily drinking bar patrons ;) Tenkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-66167478441266487662014-02-06T19:47:13.718-05:002014-02-06T19:47:13.718-05:00Analogy received :)
If you guys did an alternate...Analogy received :) <br /><br />If you guys did an alternate "just the notes" in hardback, I'd buy it. FWIW I don't think de Camp or GGK or even Derleth's pastiche-work is necessarily inferior to the primary material they worked with. The central worry/problem, in my mind, is that they got it "wrong" or unconsciously polluted the intentions of the original in their interpretation, so that the end-product is out-of-tune with the inspiration. None of that really matters though so long as the originals exist and are accessible. It's easy to appreciate and enjoy de Camp's pastiche inventions when you can see them side-by-side with Howard's work.Greg Gorgonmilkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15397374629757817360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-83870033607116401562014-02-06T19:45:30.172-05:002014-02-06T19:45:30.172-05:00Thanks, I appreciate it. I will say this: We agree...Thanks, I appreciate it. I will say this: We agree that I need luck.<br /><br />:-|Restitutor Orbishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05625086532637410710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-83180848961587268802014-02-06T19:28:14.728-05:002014-02-06T19:28:14.728-05:00We have been and are making all those available re...We have been and are making all those available regardless of what is "in the book". So from my perspective, I looked at is offering both the 12-volume Tolkien notes and the Kay-edited Silmarillion, rather than just the Tolkien notes. But maybe people want the notes in the hardbound book format? (Tavis is investigating whether we can do that for those who want it).<br /><br />And lest I be accused of arrogance again! I do not claim to be as good an editor as de Camp or Guy Gavriel Kay, I'm merely drawing an analogy.Restitutor Orbishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05625086532637410710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-18701494808139549842014-02-06T19:18:14.810-05:002014-02-06T19:18:14.810-05:00You don't consider Tomb of Horrors an adventur...You don't consider Tomb of Horrors an adventure? Come on.TheShadowKnowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11073693648569864707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-54335237051216519142014-02-06T19:09:28.413-05:002014-02-06T19:09:28.413-05:00I guess I'd prefer to get my hands on the unfi...I guess I'd prefer to get my hands on the unfinished notes, being the DIY, literary purist guy. Filling in the blanks is ultimately going to give the reader de Camp's Conan -- versus exposing that reader to Robert E. Howard's incomplete, untouched drafts and letting him draw his own conclusions.<br /><br />Mythology exults in inconsistencies!Greg Gorgonmilkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15397374629757817360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-782768428327504072014-02-06T19:00:01.926-05:002014-02-06T19:00:01.926-05:00Aw, now that we're communicating directly I fe...Aw, now that we're communicating directly I feel kind of bad for tearing into you (for real this time). I still disagree with your reasoning, but I guess I'll offer an apology for getting personal (which wasn't necessary) and wish you luck. You'll need it.TheShadowKnowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11073693648569864707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-55780525138277715502014-02-06T18:02:13.160-05:002014-02-06T18:02:13.160-05:00We are not disagreeing as to whether there are inc...We are not disagreeing as to whether there are inconsistencies. Because you are saying that "the written text in one section contradicts another section" (to quote you) and I'm agreeing with you. It says A in one section and Not A in another.<br /><br />Where we are disagreeing is whether that should be resolved by the writer or left to the DM. You are saying it should be left to the DM. Why? <br /><br />Let us imagine two types of DMs:<br />1) DIY DM, who is capable of easily modifying a product<br />2) Out of the Box DM, who wants to run a product as-is (for whatever reason - time, energy, personal preference)<br />DM Type 1 can already do what he wants with Dwimmermount, and can still do whatever he wants with it, regardless of how "fixed" it is.<br />DM Type 2 will benefit if the inconsistencies are smoothed over.<br />I get that you are a Type 1 DM, for instance. But not everyone is. <br /><br />A Type 2 DM prefers Keep on the Borderlands to In Search of the Unknown. But a Type 1 DM can still enjoy Keep on the Borderlands. B2 isn't rendered useless for DIY because Gary filled in the room keys for us and thereby we couldn't be creative with the Caves, is it?<br />Restitutor Orbishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05625086532637410710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-41336640265924229712014-02-06T17:38:25.515-05:002014-02-06T17:38:25.515-05:00I would submit that you that an adventure without ...I would submit that you that an adventure without a plot is not an adventure per se. It's a supplement. If you present a setting that includes a town with a dungeon nearby I would call that a sandbox setting supplement and not an adventure. You can certainly have adventures in that setting, but the actual presentation is not an adventure because nothing is really happening. petespahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01003977036485078376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-89420847481026434382014-02-06T17:37:27.971-05:002014-02-06T17:37:27.971-05:00"The "plot holes" in question are h..."The "plot holes" in question are holes in the plots of the characters presented in the dungeon by James - his draft organized them into competing factions with their own agendas! One faction is described as plotting to use a sleeping god as a weapon of mass destruction. They do not have the key to activate it. That's a hole in their plot, no?" <br /><br />No, it's not a plot hole. It's an unknown. And it leaves room for the DM to improvise.<br /><br />"Another faction is described as having long monitored Dwimmermount magically, even as in another section Dwimmermount is described as being impossible to magically scry. That's a hole in their plot, no?"<br /><br />Nope, not a plot hole. It means they've been trying, but failing. Maybe they've been seeing untruths and taking it as truths. Or maybe they've just been getting static in their scrying crystals. Again, unanswered questions does not equal plot holes.<br /><br />These are NOT inconsistencies. They are open-ended situations where the written text in one section contradicts another section. This means that the relationship between the two pieces of texts is in question, and that the DM must make a decision on how to resolve those contradictions.<br /><br />Plot = sequence of events that happen in a certain order to create a coherent narrative story arc. These are not plot holes unless there is a missing sequence of events. And even if they are "inconsistencies" they shouldn't be a problem for a person who has a brain in her head and knows how to use it. Inconsistencies should be viewed as creative constraints that a good DM can work with to keep the players on their toes.<br />Matthew Schmeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11348372645986806502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-65393986825339734832014-02-06T17:28:52.343-05:002014-02-06T17:28:52.343-05:00I wouldn't. Let each and every DM handle it ho...I wouldn't. Let each and every DM handle it however they see fit!David The Archmagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649391406526258069noreply@blogger.com