tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post1213301025962769991..comments2024-03-27T20:09:00.283-04:00Comments on Tenkar's Tavern: Rantish - My Thoughts on Gatekeeping in the OSRTenkarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05159289652051155824noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-33909228219213201922018-03-30T10:39:23.527-04:002018-03-30T10:39:23.527-04:005th Edition came out a few years ago, Brad.5th Edition came out a few years ago, Brad.pizzlepopopohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13567345012798815434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-21493094701569605772018-03-28T20:36:37.057-04:002018-03-28T20:36:37.057-04:00The proof to me that there is no "absolute&qu...The proof to me that there is no "absolute" "pure" "complete" version of this game, is the fact that the creators themselves (Gygax, Arneson) modified the very game they first created. And they did so right away. Go tell them (though I doubt there is Facebook in Heaven) that they were not purists, that they're modifications had no value, that they're versions were dumbed down, that they're not roleplayers or "old school"...The Swartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13595743896849198208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-44640182474386678342018-03-28T17:58:59.784-04:002018-03-28T17:58:59.784-04:00This isn't gatekeepingThis isn't gatekeepingJames Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01728054107958411289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-16664878717446932092018-03-28T15:44:53.905-04:002018-03-28T15:44:53.905-04:00So make something new and show the rest of us how ...So make something new and show the rest of us how we are doing it wrong. :DRobert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-29643001359247112072018-03-28T15:16:01.332-04:002018-03-28T15:16:01.332-04:00The real problem with the OSR is the constant reha...The real problem with the OSR is the constant rehashing of D&D over and over again. Make something new!Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06596247660364673313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-78234197747053422552018-03-28T12:56:01.767-04:002018-03-28T12:56:01.767-04:00I'm not a fan of the endless amount of virtual...I'm not a fan of the endless amount of virtually identical retroclones. But I understand their value. More importantly, I'd rather hand a new player a retroclone or share a link with them than the originals (for obvious reasons).pizzlepopopohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13567345012798815434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-66993983869396576722018-03-28T09:32:44.567-04:002018-03-28T09:32:44.567-04:00I never really played AD&D either, Andrew. Ba...I never really played AD&D either, Andrew. Back when we all communicated by snail mail, you couldn't play strictly by the book; you had to house rule if you wanted keep playing while you waited 3-6 months to find out if they answered your question in Sage Advice.<br /><br />I think the internet has had a hugely positive effect on gaming, but the accessibility to designers and publishers has resulted in a fetishization of official material that bugs the shit out of me.<br /><br />Or maybe I'm just glossing over all the rules-lawyering I did as a kid. who knows.Caleb Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858260507123306044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-37949234517845106492018-03-28T06:45:16.894-04:002018-03-28T06:45:16.894-04:00I have to acknowledge that the populace of RPG is ...I have to acknowledge that the populace of RPG is a fractious thing. FWIW, I started out reading Fighting Fantasy and played the FFRPG before D&D was a thing in country Australia. For me, Fighting Fantasy is OSR. I love Freebooters on the Frontier secretly, because it reminds me when I was starting out playing Frank's Red Box D&D. People won't even look at Freebooters and Perilous Wilds because of *reasons* related to Dungeon World and if you secretly scoffed at my Red Box D&D experience, well.... <br /><br />But really, I'd love to be playing AD&D like I used to back in the 1980's and 90's, but then, I never really played AD&D: I played something that was D&D with the AD&D classes, but here's me trying to define how I rolled when I played whaybackwhen -- and all y'all can only empathise with me because all y'all rolled a similar, yet in a slightly different way. Vin Diesel Played Old School D&D...oh wait, no he didn't -- he played Arcanum 2nd Edition. <br /><br />But that is what OSR is. Well that is what OSR is to me; everyone's version of what they played back in the day. If SWL captures some or most of that, it is a way in for Dungeon Masters as much as Players into something larger. Maybe that DM will look at SWCL, or maybe Swords and Wizardry Core, or Complete. Maybe they'll look at Labyrinth Lord, or gonzo out on DCCRPG. Or have a love/hate relationship with OSRIC, or decide that Castles & Crusades is where it's at while having some skewed revelation that 3.5 is some sort of Advanced D&D version of C&C...<br /><br />Maybe.<br /><br />OSR is a journey through one facet of RPGs, OSR is not a destination and people would do well to remember that the way I played is not the same as the way you did. But I'll play your game --because I know you'll be open minded to play in mine :)Andrew Galehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14178426087302130432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-51642153103808156592018-03-28T06:19:15.428-04:002018-03-28T06:19:15.428-04:00I keep forgetting how cool Castles and Crusades is...I keep forgetting how cool Castles and Crusades is.Andrew Galehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14178426087302130432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-52760852069926493532018-03-27T23:51:45.055-04:002018-03-27T23:51:45.055-04:00I wouldn't even consider getting back into gam...I wouldn't even consider getting back into gaming if it wasn't for the OSR. S&W, OSRIC, LL are love letters. They are erudite treatises on the originals. Sure, we may lose a few things, like weapon speed, but those will still be there for scholars and purists to study and use if they want to. I do fret a little that the hobby seems to have moved away from wargaming and towards gonzo. I prefer fictions to somehow shed illumination back onto life here as opposed to flights of fancy run amok.Nestorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912602442512956376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-39761043753850842752018-03-27T22:54:10.418-04:002018-03-27T22:54:10.418-04:00I got into the OSR through Castles & Crusades....I got into the OSR through Castles & Crusades. It's my go-to system for fantasy gaming. I learned D&D from 2nd edition (the black books), and prefer the simplicity of C&C-like games.<br /><br />Honestly, the ones that hew closest to the originals don't excited me, and I really don't like descending AC.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10759276313618239060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-12814491837630837592018-03-27T21:33:44.471-04:002018-03-27T21:33:44.471-04:00Gatekeeping? Yeah, the Basic Fantasy Project had ...Gatekeeping? Yeah, the Basic Fantasy Project had a gate, once. We took it down and made a table out of it...<br /><br />Gatekeeping has no place in our corner of the OSR. Not only is it wrong, it's LAME. Seriously.Chris Gonnermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09491320279165054124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-75354626962195069112018-03-27T21:01:03.709-04:002018-03-27T21:01:03.709-04:00"When +Bill Webb decided to publish Swords &a..."When +Bill Webb decided to publish Swords & Wizardry Light (and +Matt Finch gave me his blessings), when Frog God Games decided to print thousands of copies to give away for free at conventions and via mail, its because they understood the value of making the entry bar to the OSR and gaming in general easier for potential players to cross, not harder."<br /><br />I think there's a reason people who make these complaints don't run game companies or publish anything.<br /><br />And seriously, having read (but never played) the original White Box, it's a terrible document from a technical communication perspective. So many unnecessarily big words. So much passive voice. But judging from what I've read of the Traveller LBBs, these traits were common in 1970s RPG writing. It was a bunch of people trying to prove they were the smartest people in the room by showing off their vocabulary and demonstrating that they could write like a scientific paper. But if you want to actually sell something to the general public (or even have it adopted for free by them), ease of use is an issue.Kevin S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06076147424768269913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-86015500266289993312018-03-27T18:42:19.375-04:002018-03-27T18:42:19.375-04:00Those of you who accuse me of being a Gatekeeper f...Those of you who accuse me of being a Gatekeeper from one post I made are trying to stir the pot when no such intent was there.<br /><br />Besides, if you arent using the 1st edition weapons initiative rules you cant even be called a roleplayer, much less old school.<br /><br />;)DC Spartanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04861738747840008904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-34071929889796122972018-03-27T17:55:53.684-04:002018-03-27T17:55:53.684-04:00I'm perfectly capable of still playing the Hol...I'm perfectly capable of still playing the Holmes Basic + OD&D box set I started with, and like it (though searching for rules in those books is a big distraction in actual play), and yet I write my own OSR variant Stone Halls & Serpent Men, bought Swords & Wizardry and Blueholme and like those for more "normal" play, and would like to see more weird stuff like Crimson Dragon Slayer.<br /><br />There's always going to be zealots who think whatever was published in an official book by Castles & Crusades Society/Tactical Studies Rules/TSR The Game Lizards/Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro/Paizo is the only possible way to play, and they won't like playing Calvinball with us heretics. Don't worry about it.<br />Mark Hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05325140104622317511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-85453360986970633212018-03-27T17:33:05.148-04:002018-03-27T17:33:05.148-04:00I get the Gatekeeper label. But I don't think ...I get the Gatekeeper label. But I don't think its quite accurate (after all, who exactly are they barring?). I think a better term would be 100% Pure Distilled Grognard. The absolute essence of Grognard if you will.<br /><br />Grognard to the point of diminishing returns.Emmett Fitz-Humehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08142148581840546689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-86959946415552950552018-03-27T16:55:10.150-04:002018-03-27T16:55:10.150-04:00Let the haters hate. The OSR is not, and had never...Let the haters hate. The OSR is not, and had never been a single unified community. Therefore we cannot police ourselves. It's unfortunate because those on the outside can't know what it's like on the inside and they see the loudest people and take them as evidence for the whole. I don't know the answers, but for now you do you and let them do them.Hobbs665https://www.blogger.com/profile/00169177342322836359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-35709947663980983582018-03-27T15:58:32.118-04:002018-03-27T15:58:32.118-04:00Agree on all points! Well articulated, thank you E...Agree on all points! Well articulated, thank you Erik!Jay Exonautshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11336829684749993354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-38649414637358286982018-03-27T15:33:12.518-04:002018-03-27T15:33:12.518-04:00There is no gatekeeping in the OSR. These are just...There is no gatekeeping in the OSR. These are just aspects of how individuals wish to play Gygaxian D&D (1974-2000) and wish to state their opinion like it has authority. It is multi-headed hydra but every edition 0e to 2e, every retroclone has the same heart, lungs, stomach, legs, and tail. Some heads may be prettier but its still a head with large teeth. It comes down to arguments of shades of color along with number & size of teeth.<br /><br /><br />Shadow Demonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08009127958568902852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-27762460368460645422018-03-27T15:26:52.149-04:002018-03-27T15:26:52.149-04:00The first D&D edition I owned was Holmes. I co...The first D&D edition I owned was Holmes. I couldn't understand it. When I got AD&D, I couldn't understand it. In the end, older & more experienced players had to show me the ropes. I see SWL and SWCL as stand-ins for those older & more experienced players who taught me the game. The reason I love SWL & SWCL and will not only play it but support it is that my children can understand the game as written. It exemplifies what is great about the OSR: taking the past, making it our own so that this hobby can continue into the future. FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-12210560059036848632018-03-27T14:04:08.663-04:002018-03-27T14:04:08.663-04:00While its true I learned D&D in high school wi...While its true I learned D&D in high school with the original white box set. It is more true that I learned it from my friends in spite of the white box, than because of it. As a example of the problem the white box only contains combat chart labeled alternate with target numbers versus a d20 roll (they assumed you had a copy of "Chainmail", only one of my friends did). I am not even certain the chart mentions using a dice to generate the numbers. We used decks of cards with face cards removed for first year I played. Every DM I played with then had a different interpretation of the of rules. Anyone who thinks D&D is understandable and playable merely by reading the original rules is unlikely to have actually done so. imredavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11791259426241403181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-18042671177563496312018-03-27T13:46:41.137-04:002018-03-27T13:46:41.137-04:00How many of the "one true D&D" funda...How many of the "one true D&D" fundamentalists play using the Chainmail combat system, 20 players and with a copy of Outdoor Survival at hand?<br />Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05873440251698488032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-40130759714502539892018-03-27T13:06:17.617-04:002018-03-27T13:06:17.617-04:00Wow this is like people who argue over a bible or ...Wow this is like people who argue over a bible or religious text and having different interpretations of it and argue which one is right. I dont think the hobbies original books should be treated like the word of god, but what do I know I think 1E sucked, 3.5 was a lot of fun and burning wheel is better then the other two combined. deep throathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17689514887223851937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-47992057979854135592018-03-27T12:59:29.198-04:002018-03-27T12:59:29.198-04:00I am *very* new to OSR, having only previously pla...I am *very* new to OSR, having only previously played a few 2e and 3.5e campaigns many years ago. What I love about the OSR derivatives are the perspectives that authors with upwards of 40 years of experience can bring to the table, especially in regards to streamlining the original texts.<br /><br />The original books are always there and are great (essential) reads for the history and flavor, but if I need a convenient, beautifully designed reference to turn to during a game, I'm going to go with a BLUEHOLME or a B/X Essentials - both available for free to anyone who wants them - over the real deal. There's just no reason not to.xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01339243336103077903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724254580047847936.post-86597976681389164962018-03-27T12:54:16.351-04:002018-03-27T12:54:16.351-04:00When I get into this one the older edition forums....When I get into this one the older edition forums. My contention that the lesson to be drawn from the beginning of the hobby isn't the specific rules to be used but rather the idea that you think of some fun type of campaign, scenario, or game you want to run and then assemble what needed to make it happen from whatever source you think best.<br /><br />Because we are decades into this we have a much deeper well of material to draw on. Not just in gaming but in literature as well due to continued research into past eras.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.com